The Purpose Driven Life - Rick Warren

Debate specific books

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

The Purpose Driven Life - Rick Warren

Post #1

Post by otseng »

This thread is to debate/discuss the book The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.

If you would like to participate in this thread, sign up on the signup sheet.

For now, we'll debate the book in only this thread. If we start to have a lot of people participating, then we can split it off to several threads.

We'll go through the book a chapter at a time, but anyone can make comments at anytime about chapters that we've already covered. Please hold off on discussing future chapters until we get to it.

Book debate format:
- Start off with background info of the author and book.
- Try to cover one chapter at a time and discuss the points made in that chapter. No chapter opened up will be closed until the entire thread is closed.
- Give final thoughts on the book.
- Close the thread.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Post #11

Post by otseng »

Compassionist wrote: Actually, the purpose of life is to survive and reproduce. It is obvious - perhaps, that's why you have missed it!
I don't think it would bring much satisfaction or fulfillment to life if that was the only purpose.
Cathar1950 wrote:Why would we think there is just one purpose?
Experience indicates there are many purposes.
Such as?
God is simply an attempt to explain the mystery of existence with yet another mystery. As Ingersoll said, "Our ignorance is God and our knowledge is our science." I don't think the God of the Gaps even exists although it is impossible to prove the non-existence of ANYTHING e.g. fairies and God(s).
The book presumes that God exists. I don't think defending God's existence would be in scope of debating the book.
Since the Bible claims that allegedly God predestined everything, these words must have been predestined, too! Oh well, non-Christians such as myself were predestined be so. I can't help it, brother. Halleluiah!
Yes, many believe in predestination. And it seems Warren included. Myself, I do not believe that God predestines everything.

Compassionist
Sage
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 334 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #12

Post by Compassionist »

otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote: Actually, the purpose of life is to survive and reproduce. It is obvious - perhaps, that's why you have missed it!
I don't think it would bring much satisfaction or fulfillment to life if that was the only purpose.
It depends. For babies, just being alive is fulfilling enough. A truly fulfilling life consists of enjoyable activities and the practicing of virtues and a framework of meaning. What is enjoyable for me, may not be enjoyable for you. What I consider to be a virtue, may not be considered to be a virtue by you. What I find meaningful, may not be found meaningful by you. Ultimately, all living things die. The sooner one comes to terms with the inevitable, the sooner will one find peace.
otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote:God is simply an attempt to explain the mystery of existence with yet another mystery. As Ingersoll said, "Our ignorance is God and our knowledge is our science." I don't think the God of the Gaps even exists although it is impossible to prove the non-existence of ANYTHING e.g. fairies and God(s).
The book presumes that God exists. I don't think defending God's existence would be in scope of debating the book.
I agree but just because he presumes that God exists it doesn't mean that God exists or that the God that exists is a Biblical God as opposed to the God of Hinduism or any other religion.
otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Since the Bible claims that allegedly God predestined everything, these words must have been predestined, too! Oh well, non-Christians such as myself were predestined be so. I can't help it, brother. Halleluiah!
Yes, many believe in predestination. And it seems Warren included. Myself, I do not believe that God predestines everything.
The verses I quoted indicates that salvation and damnation are both predestined by God. Besides, we are all prisoners of causality. Without omniscience and omnipotence, real free will cannot exist.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Post #13

Post by otseng »

Compassionist wrote: What is enjoyable for me, may not be enjoyable for you. What I consider to be a virtue, may not be considered to be a virtue by you. What I find meaningful, may not be found meaningful by you.
I think here lies the difference. Without God, any purpose would be subjective and basically be up to the individual. In the Christian view, there would be an objective purpose for man that is determined by the one who gives life.
The verses I quoted indicates that salvation and damnation are both predestined by God. Besides, we are all prisoners of causality.
There are also many verses that say that we should choose salvation:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Without omniscience and omnipotence, real free will cannot exist.
I assume you mean with omniscience, then there is no free will.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Post #14

Post by otseng »

Day 3 - What Drives Your Life?

Warren offers how many would answer it: guilt, anger, fear, materialism, approval.

What he says is that it should be driven by purpose.

No problem with me on this.

I like his question at the end: What would my family and friends say is the driving force of my life?

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10501
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #15

Post by Cathar1950 »

otseng wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Why would we think there is just one purpose?
Experience indicates there are many purposes.
Such as?
The first thing that came to mind was; You got to be kidding.
Why do you flip the light switch, turn on the stove or set your alarm?

Even if there was just one purpose only God would infallibly know that purpose, not humans. Any human imaginings of purpose would be subjective and limited.

Look at the problems with the free-will and determinism. Even with a belive in God and your Bible you can't come to anything but some confusing as well as conflicting opinions as the writers disagree and have different purposes for their writings. This holds true for the readers too.

Compassionist
Sage
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 334 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #16

Post by Compassionist »

otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote: What is enjoyable for me, may not be enjoyable for you. What I consider to be a virtue, may not be considered to be a virtue by you. What I find meaningful, may not be found meaningful by you.
I think here lies the difference. Without God, any purpose would be subjective and basically be up to the individual. In the Christian view, there would be an objective purpose for man that is determined by the one who gives life.
Well, there are two problems with this. Firstly, it presumes that the Biblical God is real and really created life (as opposed to being imaginary). Secondly, God's alleged purpose for life would not be objective, it would be subjective, from God's alleged omniscient, omnipotent point of view. Do you understand?
otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote: The verses I quoted indicates that salvation and damnation are both predestined by God. Besides, we are all prisoners of causality.
There are also many verses that say that we should choose salvation:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Clearly, the Bible has many contradictory verses. I am not convinced that the Bible is any more reliable than any other religious books.
otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Without omniscience and omnipotence, real free will cannot exist.
I assume you mean with omniscience, then there is no free will.
No, you have misunderstood me. I was saying that free will is only possible when one is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore truly free to choose. Of course, with omniscience and omnipotence comes omniculpability. We are prisoners of causality. If you had my genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences, you would have been typing these words right here, right now and if I had your genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences then I would have been reading these words wherever and whenever you are reading these words. Everything is proceeding inevitably according to causality. Do you understand? It is because we are all prisoners of causality that I am the Compassionist Fideistic Saviour of All in the Omniverse which consists of an infinite number of Universes including the one where this discussion is taking place. It's not my fault or my credit that this is so. If I had the genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences of a dolphin I would have been a dolphin. We are all prisoners of causality and doing the bidding of causality. Some of us are deluded enough to believe they have free will while others like me are all too aware that no one has free will unless they happen to be omniscient and omnipotent. I am not omniscient and omnipotent and I don't know anyone who is omniscient and omnipotent. I am omnicompassionate and omnibenevolent but given my lack of omniscience and omnipotence I am unable to make everyone equally omniscient and omnipotent. All I can do is have my inevitable faith that by my faith all are saved. You are saved. I am saved. All are saved. Isn't it wonderful? Salvation is indeed through faith alone - by my faith alone we are all saved for all of eternity. See you in our life after death!
Last edited by Compassionist on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Post #17

Post by otseng »

Cathar1950 wrote:
otseng wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Why would we think there is just one purpose?
Experience indicates there are many purposes.
Such as?
The first thing that came to mind was; You got to be kidding.
You were the one who stated "experience indicates there are many purposes". Why would I be kidding to ask what are those experiences you are referring to?
Why do you flip the light switch, turn on the stove or set your alarm?
How would that be relevant to purpose in life?
Even if there was just one purpose only God would infallibly know that purpose, not humans. Any human imaginings of purpose would be subjective and limited.
In Christianity, God has revealed his general purpose for man - to love God and to love others. For more specifics, that it what the book addresses.
Look at the problems with the free-will and determinism. Even with a belive in God and your Bible you can't come to anything but some confusing as well as conflicting opinions as the writers disagree and have different purposes for their writings. This holds true for the readers too.
Actually, it all makes sense to me. Especially compared with the alternatives.

Compassionist
Sage
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 334 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #18

Post by Compassionist »

otseng wrote:Day 3 - What Drives Your Life?

Warren offers how many would answer it: guilt, anger, fear, materialism, approval.

What he says is that it should be driven by purpose.

No problem with me on this.

I like his question at the end: What would my family and friends say is the driving force of my life?
Different people would have different opinions of what drives me. There are almost 7 billion people alive on the planet and very few of them know me well. There opinions would be coloured by their different or shared prejudices. What do YOU think drives me?

The reality is that like everyone else, I am driven by causality. We are all equal prisoners of causality. Everything is proceeding according to causality.

As my signature says, I live and help live. I live and love.

Compassionist
Sage
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 334 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #19

Post by Compassionist »

otseng wrote:In Christianity, God has revealed his general purpose for man - to love God and to love others.
Why would anyone love a God who is either imaginary or evil? Just look at all the unfairness and suffering life consists of! I am happy to love everyone but God because I am convinced that God is either imaginary or evil. You are welcome to convince me that God is real and good and worthy of loving. Thank you.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18580
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Post #20

Post by otseng »

Compassionist wrote:Firstly, it presumes that the Biblical God is real and really created life (as opposed to being imaginary).
Of course. The book presumes this.

I sense that this thread is not going to really be a review of the book, but rather using the book as a conversation starter for other issues. I don't have a problem with this, but I need to shift my thinking for this perspective instead.
Secondly, God's alleged purpose for life would not be objective, it would be subjective, from God's alleged omniscient, omnipotent point of view. Do you understand?
Not really. Also, just to let you know, I do not beileve that God is omnipotent (but rather super-potent).
Clearly, the Bible has many contradictory verses. I am not convinced that the Bible is any more reliable than any other religious books.
You are certainly free to think that.
Of course, with omniscience and omnipotence comes omniculpability. We are prisoners of causality.
I understand what you are saying. However, like I said, I do not believe God is omnipotent.

As for omniscience, I do believe that. However, I also believe that we have freewill. And that the two can exist together.
If you had my genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences, you would have been typing these words right here, right now and if I had your genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences then I would have been reading these words wherever and whenever you are reading these words. Everything is proceeding inevitably according to causality. Do you understand?
I understand, but I do not agree.
Different people would have different opinions of what drives me.
Yes, they would. I think the point that Warren was making is how others perceive me, not necessarily how I perceive it, or what it actually is. I might think I'm doing things for noble purposes, but come across as being a selfish person.
Why would anyone love a God who is either imaginary or evil? Just look at all the unfairness and suffering life consists of! I am happy to love everyone but God because I am convinced that God is either imaginary or evil.
If God is evil, I would not want to worship it either. But, I do not believe that God is evil, but good.

As for the problem of evil, that is a huge area in itself and could take up an entire thread (or even a book).

Post Reply