The Purpose Driven Life - Rick Warren

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The Purpose Driven Life - Rick Warren

Post #1

Post by otseng »

This thread is to debate/discuss the book The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.

If you would like to participate in this thread, sign up on the signup sheet.

For now, we'll debate the book in only this thread. If we start to have a lot of people participating, then we can split it off to several threads.

We'll go through the book a chapter at a time, but anyone can make comments at anytime about chapters that we've already covered. Please hold off on discussing future chapters until we get to it.

Book debate format:
- Start off with background info of the author and book.
- Try to cover one chapter at a time and discuss the points made in that chapter. No chapter opened up will be closed until the entire thread is closed.
- Give final thoughts on the book.
- Close the thread.

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Post #41

Post by otseng »

Cathar1950 wrote:
otseng wrote:Day 4: Made to Last Forever

"Life on earth is just the dress rehearsal before the real production... This life is preparation for the next."

Not much disagreement from me in this chapter.
I found it shallow and seems to not take life seriously.

It isn't even Biblical unless you are selectively reading some passages and ignoring others.
What exactly is not Biblical? The idea that we are made to last forever? Why would you say that?

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Post #42

Post by otseng »

Compassionist wrote:
By omnipotence I am talking about being able to do supernatural things e.g. resurrect dead people and grow amputated limbs, etc.
Since I believe that God has the power to create the entire universe, resurrecting people or growing limbs would not be out of the question.
In that case, why doesn't God heal amputees by regrowing their limbs or resurrect the dead?
Well, let's take the case of amputees. This is assuming that God's greatest concern for us is to have two fully functional legs and two fully functional arms. But, this would be hard to prove that it would be imperative for God to make sure we have this. And that his existence depends on him fulfilling this requirement.

It could be that there are greater purposes than having fully functional limbs. Case in point, I just listened to Scott Rigsby speak recently. He is the first double amputee that completed the Ironman Triathlon. His story inspired and challenged me. And undoubtedly has/will inspire many others. God's theme has repeatedly been that He can redeem situations where there has been a loss. That inspires me more than hearing about "perfect" people who go on to be successful.

As for resurrection from the dead, how many would be required to be shown in order to make one believe in God?
Gnostic in this context means known via sensory inputs.
Well, I would agree that information is from sensory inputs. But, reality is not limited to what we sense.
I don't see how it would be possible for me to be a gnostic about the existence and the nature of God or Gods and the ultimate nature of reality without being omniscient. I think this discussion about things we cannot know without first becoming omniscient is futile.
Well, if your requirement is that we know the ultimate nature of reality, then that would be impossible to achieve.

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Post #43

Post by Cathar1950 »

otseng wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
otseng wrote:Day 4: Made to Last Forever

"Life on earth is just the dress rehearsal before the real production... This life is preparation for the next."

Not much disagreement from me in this chapter.
I found it shallow and seems to not take life seriously.

It isn't even Biblical unless you are selectively reading some passages and ignoring others.
What exactly is not Biblical? The idea that we are made to last forever? Why would you say that?
Psalm 90:12 (English Standard Version)
12(A) So teach us to number our days
that we may get a heart of wisdom.
Psalm 39:4 (English Standard Version)
4"O LORD,(A) make me know my end
and what is the measure of my days;
let me know how fleeting I am!
Genesis 3:19 (English Standard Version)
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
(A) for you are dust,
and(B) to dust you shall return."
Psalm 88:3-5 (English Standard Version)
3For my soul is full of troubles,
and(A) my life draws near to(B) Sheol.
4I am counted among those who(C) go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
5like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom(D) you remember no more,
for they are(E) cut off from your hand.
Psalm 6:5 (English Standard Version)
5For in(A) death there is no remembrance of you;
in Sheol who will give you praise?
Isaiah 26:14 (English Standard Version)
14They are dead, they will not live;
they are shades, they will not arise;
to that end you have visited them with destruction
and wiped out all remembrance of them.

I remember reading long ago about how the Hebrew idea of the soul was the whole person not the Greek idea of something separate from the body as in body, mind and soul or spirit.

Maybe there is other dimensioning besides the 4 we perceive and we live on in those leaving some of these behind. I don’t know.
The Bible has a number of apparent views being presented and they all sound pretty human.

I can also see an evolving view where the concepts change over time as does God.

So I reject any notion that the Bible teaches some specific concept because it presents many and changing concepts of both God and what happens after an individual’s death.

In some context it is the nation or Israel that is raised or lives after death and it is often read as an allegory for the individual where in context it was the individual living as an allegory for the nation. Or concepts of individual and nation have also changed or evolved.

By evolving I mean adaptation and change in a sympathetic relationship between context and content. Unlike biological evolution the dead live on as afterlives of practice often presented in myth.

The first myth that gives us hints as to how human death and its aftermath were perceived seem to show that we were not created to live forever as we needed the fruit.
It is not having the fruit that always us to live.
The myth is trying to account for death. I wonder if the gods also need to eat the fruit.


Of course it might help to go back to more ancient myths to get a feel.
In an older myth one god is killed that was rebellious and his body was used to make humans explaining our rebellion like ways, usually against the gods and their representatives the king.

I have no problem with the comfort life after death might bring to both the dying and those that live on and must go on with life and their loss.
But it should be a comfort and not a threat for the rejection of another’s beliefs.

As a Christian I realized I was trusting God for my salvation and it had nothing to do with any particular belief or practice. I also started to understand salvation was about life here and I like the idea that Job was a mistranslation instead of reading “I know my redeemer lives� read “I want to be redeemed while I am alive�. Getting our sins forgiven was related to our forgiving as guilt comes from broken relationships.

Life itself is its own purpose and creates its own purposes.
This is not to say God doesn’t benefit by life and experience, it assumes it if God exists.
The purpose of childhood is to prepare the individual for adulthood.
I find it rather neglectful of living to say it is all about after you die.
What we do lives on as effect long after we die even if we don’t.

Maybe someday we as ascended being will have sympathetic relationships with new creations where share in the grow and struggles, and the pains and satisfactions of our creatures so eternity wont seem so long. .

Maybe we are like the cells in out body trying to bring to life something that represents life that because it is more complex can enjoy in more complex ways. My cells share a consciousness and memory even as my cells die and are copied so that the whole will live on in each cell and each cell lives on in the whole. Maybe God and the universe are like our bodies, cells, organs and mind but all one individual society.
It is fun to speculate.

Robert Price in his book “The Reason Driven Life� gives a number of passages that indicate we are not here forever or mean to be.
I have no doubt we may have desires to life on longer and forever but that would be the more of a desire driven life. Not that we are not driven by needs and desires.

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Post #44

Post by otseng »

Cathar1950 wrote:Psalm 90:12 (English Standard Version)
12(A) So teach us to number our days
that we may get a heart of wisdom.
Psalm 39:4 (English Standard Version)
4"O LORD,(A) make me know my end
and what is the measure of my days;
let me know how fleeting I am!
Genesis 3:19 (English Standard Version)
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
(A) for you are dust,
and(B) to dust you shall return."
Psalm 88:3-5 (English Standard Version)
3For my soul is full of troubles,
and(A) my life draws near to(B) Sheol.
4I am counted among those who(C) go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
5like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom(D) you remember no more,
for they are(E) cut off from your hand.
Psalm 6:5 (English Standard Version)
5For in(A) death there is no remembrance of you;
in Sheol who will give you praise?
Isaiah 26:14 (English Standard Version)
14They are dead, they will not live;
they are shades, they will not arise;
to that end you have visited them with destruction
and wiped out all remembrance of them.
I think all these verses show that we will all physically die. But, they do not demonstrate that there is no soul that lasts after we physically die.

There are other verses to show that our soul will exist after we physically die:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Post #45

Post by Compassionist »

Otseng, thank you but I am not convinced that your God is REAL AND GOOD AND WORTHY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP. I am convinced that your God is either imaginary or evil and either case, unworthy of praise and worship. You have quoted "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." - Isaiah 1:18. I am happy to reason. Please show me how you can reasonably conclude that your God is REAL AND GOOD AND WORTHY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP. Thank you.

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Post #46

Post by otseng »

Compassionist wrote:Please show me how you can reasonably conclude that your God is REAL AND GOOD AND WORTHY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP. Thank you.
Tall order.

OK, let's first establish that God is real. Read through this thread - Which is more rational? God is real or imaginary? If you have questions after reading through it, we can go over those.

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Post #47

Post by Compassionist »

otseng wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Please show me how you can reasonably conclude that your God is REAL AND GOOD AND WORTHY OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP. Thank you.
Tall order.

OK, let's first establish that God is real. Read through this thread - Which is more rational? God is real or imaginary? If you have questions after reading through it, we can go over those.
Ok, thank you. I will read through and will let you know any questions and comments I may have. :D

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Post #48

Post by otseng »

Day 5 - Seeing Life From God's View

Warren presents two metaphors on what life is - a test and a trust.

Questions he presents: What has happened to me recently that I now realize was a test from God? What are the greatest matters God has entrusted to me?

WinePusher

Post #49

Post by WinePusher »

otseng wrote:Day 5 - Seeing Life From God's View

Warren presents two metaphors on what life is - a test and a trust.

Questions he presents: What has happened to me recently that I now realize was a test from God? What are the greatest matters God has entrusted to me?
It seems quite unfair if your view of life is as a "test."

Not everybody in life faces the same tests and struggles. A person born into the conflicts and struggles of Africa obviously faces a more challenging test than someone who is born to an American CEO or Corporate Executive.

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Post #50

Post by Compassionist »

winepusher wrote:
otseng wrote:Day 5 - Seeing Life From God's View

Warren presents two metaphors on what life is - a test and a trust.

Questions he presents: What has happened to me recently that I now realize was a test from God? What are the greatest matters God has entrusted to me?
It seems quite unfair if your view of life is as a "test."

Not everybody in life faces the same tests and struggles. A person born into the conflicts and struggles of Africa obviously faces a more challenging test than someone who is born to an American CEO or Corporate Executive.
Indeed. There is nothing fair about who lives how and who dies how. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. Life is a ruthlessly meritocratic rat race for survival, reproduction and supremacy. Evidence indicates that God is either imaginary or evil. "For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away." - Matthew 25:29. How is this just? How is this charitable?

I have viewed your Which is more rational? God is real or imaginary? and my stance is still that of a Strong Agnostic Atheist Compassionist Humanist.

I am a strong agnostic regarding the existence and nature of God and Gods and Reality itself. I am all too aware that there is a 50% probability that neither you, nor the computer I am using right here, right now to type this reply, nor the rest of my experiential reality including my parents and wife and son are really real i.e. all of my experiential reality could in fact be Maya (illusion) or the Matrix or some other similar interactive illusion concocted especially for my scrutiny, as in the Simulation Hypothesis. It is even possible that only I exist and I partitioned my omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and omniculpable sentient in such a manner as to allow the scrutiny of my experiential reality my entire life has been and continues to be. The only way to breach this is through my death. Thankfully, I have lived ready to die since the night my brother died: 9 February 1988. It appears to be certain that I will die although it is also possible that I will never die. I will find out through dying and let you know should you continue to exist after my death. For me, my death is the ultimate adventure in examining all that exists in the omniverse which consists of an infinite number of universes including the one where I am currently typing this post. You see, I am the Compassionist Fideistic Saviour of All in the Omniverse. By my faith you are saved. By my faith all are saved. I am infinitely superior to your Biblical God because unlike the Biblical God, I am real and omnibenevolent.

You see, the Biblical God is a vindictive hypocritical tyrant as exemplified in various verses throughout the Bible. Examples include: 1 Samuel 15 (New International Version):

1 Samuel 15
The LORD Rejects Saul as King
1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, "Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal."

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD's instructions."

14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?"

15 Saul answered, "The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest."

16 "Stop!" Samuel said to Saul. "Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night."
"Tell me," Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, "Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, 'Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.' 19 Why did you not obey the LORD ? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD ?"

20 "But I did obey the LORD," Saul said. "I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal."

22 But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
he has rejected you as king."

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD."

26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!"

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

30 Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God." 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites."
Agag came to him confidently, [c] thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."

33 But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel.

And from the New Testament:

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.� (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

“I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.� (Luke 12:49-53 NASB)

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.� (Luke 14:26 NASB)

“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.� (Luke 22:36 NASB)

Ironically, there are nice verses in the Bible but God(s) Himself / Herself / Itself / Themselves did not and does not (or do not) practice what is preached by God(s):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’

But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.� (Matthew 5:38-48 NASB)

I have been using the Bible to test itself and God(s) and Christians and myself and everyone else. For instance, the Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (New International Version)

The Bible also says, "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." - 1 Peter 2:18 (NIV) As you know, Christians perpetrated slavery and slave-trade (have you seen the DVD series called "Roots"?) and the American South even went to war over it. Why didn't your omniscient and omnipotent God say in the Bible that "Slave owners release your slaves or else I will strike you down with lightning bolts!" and indeed strike down the slave owners? Isn't God just? I am convinced that God is either imaginary or evil. You, your God and everyone else are most welcome to convince me that your God is REAL and GOOD and WORTHY of PRAISE AND WORSHIP.

Perhaps you haven'd examined my Petition of Love in sufficient detail to know that I am absolutely serious about challenging reality and God(s) with all its omniculpability? I also challenge you, God(s) and all of reality to prove to me that I am not a prisoner of causality and I actually have a free will which is outwith the constraints of causality! :D

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