The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

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sleepyhead
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The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

Post #1

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

In order to be involved in this discussion/debate you must register here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/g ... php?g=7076

I am the group owner (so much power for one person to have). I was active LDS for about a year, inactive for a few years and presently an inactive member of the Chruch of Christ (temple lot). My posts will largely delve into certain moral teachings of the book. If others want to go through the book chapter by chapter or to only discuss the book of Ether that's also ok.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #31

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Passenger wrote: @ The Ex-Mormon:

>>>I feel this as offending and ask the mods to carry out the necessary actions.<<<

Not the mods can help you but only a psychiatrist. Take your medicin.

By the way, who is the offender...? Remember your own words:

post # 13: >>>In this case the LDS, which stands for : Lying / Denying, and / Stubbornness / And your nickname covered; (..) <<<

quote: >>>Do you have a problem with me? I do not know you; and I do not want to meet you either. For me you are a quarrel searching Mormon which spreads lies here. Not only about me but also about the LDS.<<<

I wouldn't call it a problem; it's a too big word concerning that little person you are. Spreading lies here about you and the Latter-day saints? Where are the lies...?

>>> I still live in Berne and only was in Berlin for some days. Therefore I have changed my local place. ... <<<

Sure. And I hope you didn't forget to say "hello" to Gerlinde... or "Hermione" in these forums here.

Your only intention is aspersing the LDS systematically and damaging the reputation of Mormons because of your own shipwrecking and lost of faith.
Stop bullying me! Mods and Admins: DO YOUR DUTY

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Post #32

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Passenger wrote:
The Ex-Mormon wrote:

>>>The 3. Nephi proves that the BoM was a fraud. There is no evidence for a visit of Jesus in ancient America.<<<

And there is no evidence for your mental intactness. But you surely would insist on being mentally intact... even without giving any convincing proof here.


@ Passenger,

You insult me. And you bullying me. Why? What have I done to you? I do not know you. And I do not want to meet you either.

@Sleepyhead,

The user passenger is bullying me. He said that I'm insane or ill. Either he mixes me up with somebody; or he bullied me. In every case he should be warned or banned
So do your goddamn duty.

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Post #33

Post by Passenger »

The Ex-Mormon wrote: >>>The user passenger is bullying me. He said that I'm insane or ill. Either he mixes me up with somebody; or he bullied me. In every case he should be warned or banned
So do your goddamn duty.<<<

A woman shalt not give commands to man. So do your goddamn duty and be calm. And take your medicine, darling. :blink:

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Post #34

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello passenger and exmormon,

ex mormon>>>@Sleepyhead,

The user passenger is bullying me. He said that I'm insane or ill. Either he mixes me up with somebody; or he bullied me. In every case he should be warned or banned
So do your goddamn duty.<<<

passenger>>> woman shalt not give commands to man. So do your goddamn duty and be calm. And take your medicine, darling. <<<

I'm not sure if maintaining order would fall on me or the mods. If it does fall on me then it is my official ruling that you should pm each other. In fact I have some computer games that need to be played. I'm going to see about closing the thread.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #35

Post by otseng »

Passenger wrote: You are full of poorness, and try to improve your English (especially the tenses). You're wondering about things you even wouldn't understand even if you tried. No words more for a man who isn't worth it and who pretends to be a woman.
Passenger wrote: Not the mods can help you but only a psychiatrist. Take your medicin.
Passenger wrote: And there is no evidence for your mental intactness. But you surely would insist on being mentally intact... even without giving any convincing proof here.
Passenger wrote: A woman shalt not give commands to man. So do your goddamn duty and be calm. And take your medicine, darling. :blink:
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Post #36

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

There is the question who had written the BoM. Was it JS? Sidney Rigdon? Salomon Spaulding? Which purpose connected to the BoM? The foundation of a new, an American religion?
The story in the BoM (about Laban and his murder) was it not understood by the LDS as justification for murder? As it was in case of Mountain Meadows Massacre or the terrible actions of the Danites?

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Post #37

Post by stubbornone »

The Ex-Mormon wrote: @Stuppornone,

You are very stubborn!
It gives enough archeological proof cover this one; that the Indians of America (North and South America) are not Semitic but Asian origin. DNA gives proof which is definite. To deny these means to deny facts!
Oh, and how exactly do you prove or disprove that a group of Semites over two thousand years ago traveled to the West, and whose descendants have been mostly wiped out ... when we know that there are now mestizo Indians who have Western, and Semite blood in them, whose origins cannot be definitively proven as Spanish or other Colonial European, in which Jews were wide spread, and in which we have clear and ample evidence of these descendants?

Well, to claim that genetic survey has been done that conclusively eliminates the possibility of trans continental drift, when we know that Polynesian Societies were travelling similar distances at the same time ... in canoes ... is ... not honest.

It is simply a statement of fact. You have taken something that can neither be proven of disproven and decided to claim it is definitively false. So be it, but that does not make your version 'truth'.


With the lost "tribes" of Israel you lure no more dog in front of the stove! Because the Jews hiked/traveled like at that time other folks also. They stayed, however, most under themself. Partial also, because laws did not let any other choice for them. No Jew has, however, come to America in the time then! Mormons interpret a little in because it shall strengthen their faith. Something which is not available.
The ten lost tribes are lost for a reason. To claim that they stayed to themselves and are distinct groups ... but we cannot find them? We CAN however find the two remaining tribes who did JUST that during the diaspora? Seems odd to make yet another claim in defiance of evidence ...

The Jews, when captured under Babylon, would have been ripped apart by slavery, servitude, conquest, rape, etc. To deny otherwise is to deny history itself.


It is about ancient America, not about the America after Columbus' discovery. And there were no Jewish people on the American continent at this time before the 14th century.
That is patently false. The BoM is clearly not about Columbus's time. The Nephites were nearly a millenia in the past at that time, and the descendants would have been generations of interbreed. By the time we developed the techniques necessary to prove of disprove the claim ... well, we have Mestizo Indians would could clearly be those direct descendants could they not?

Or are you claiming a group of time travelers went back to the age of Columbus and conducted a genetic test ... but this time travelling ability does not allow them to go any further and actually verify the veracity of Ancient America?

So, your denial rests upon claims of time travel? To be clear? And you dismiss those who disagree with you as ... illogical, eh?

One has by the way analyzed the text of the BoM with the help of computers. Do you want to know what the result was? Not many authors wrote it, but only three; how an author Salomon Spaulding, another Joseph Smith, and a third author Sidney Rigdon was. The same Sidney Rigdon who admitted himself to have stolen the manuscript of Spaulding. The same Rigdon who knew Joseph Smith already before the publication of the BoM as testimonies which were sworn to also ahead of a judge confirmed.
My result: The BoM is one deception of the masses laid out on deceit.
Yep, I am sure a computer analysis of a translation would never find a pattern of translation ... :roll:



Do you feel you and your faith attacked verbally because I mention facts? Because your faith does not prove as a "real religion" but as religion product? From an archeological and historical proof your "church" alone is already exposed as a deceit.
But comfort yourself, this also applies to almost all Christian religions.
You do realize that this is a debate, and the fact that your claims are countered with actual facts seems ... once again odd that you would claim rebuttal is actually a sign of fear? Actually, I think it is emotional transfer.

I've tended to notice that many atheists don;t actually use logic. Instead, they use fallacious comparison without ever actually making a claim, with the goal to never be wrong ... to never be mocked as they mock others with such claims as, "What, do you fear a few facts!"

Well, when your facts require time travel ...





Lying

Denying, and

Stubbornness
So the truth of your denial is ... insults and bland emotional accusations? I may be wrong sister, but I am no liar - and I see neither honor nor intellect in running around vaccuously claiming that others are liars simple because they disagree with my religious views.

Are Muslims liars? Buddhists? Or does the world only hold the narrowness of your own opinion ... and stubborn refusal to explore any opinion other than your own?

With other words: We have left the church or were excluded because we would have committed adultery or other sins. You therefore blame the former members to keep her away from the LDS. Because the LDS never makes mistakes, or what?
I was excommunicated because I was transsexual; and the LDS did not accept this. And this although two doctors made this diagnosis independently of each other. Is it a sin to be transsexual? Is it a sin to want to live after depressions lasting for years and two suicide attempts? But to want to live woman because a life prepared me only physical and spiritual pains as a man? Hurt which ones would not have had to be if the LDS would appreciate that does not give only black and white!
Many other have left the LDS because they have discovered documents; these prove that the LDS lies to their members and the public. Not only proof concerning ecclesiastical history, but also that one of the modern time. I only say: Proposition 8 in California! And I mention the many cases of a sexual child abuse; done by Elders or High Priests; which ones were hidden with the help of the LDS in front of the courts and the police.
The fact that someone would have been excommunicated for standards in no way eliminates the possibility of repentance and readmission. Its pride that causes them to lash out rather than humble themselves and repent. Free agency is a bitch.
I myself am a survivor of sexualized violence done by my father and my uncle. Both members of the church. Nothing happened to the perpetrators, I was threatened with excommunication. I was fourteen years old at that time!
So first all former lds members must be forgiven their imperfections, but a single branch and its misconduct reflect the accuracy of the gospel's claims? You are not the only abuse victim in the world, but if you think throwing your tragedy in someone's faith should cause them to abandon God? That is beyond silly.

Hereby I award the golden cup to you for ignorance and say in my talk that you have earned him for you honestly. Whom only believes the LDS apologists; and it is not ready to search independently; has honestly earns this cup!
As opposed to rabid denial and lashing out? I'll take the gospel over that any day!

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Post #38

Post by stubbornone »

The Ex-Mormon wrote: There is the question who had written the BoM. Was it JS? Sidney Rigdon? Salomon Spaulding? Which purpose connected to the BoM? The foundation of a new, an American religion?
The story in the BoM (about Laban and his murder) was it not understood by the LDS as justification for murder? As it was in case of Mountain Meadows Massacre or the terrible actions of the Danites?
No, that would be justification for killing as is done in ... war. Tell me, is an insurgency ... like say the Arab Revolution, murder? Was the French Revolution murder? The Russian Revolution? The Hungarian Uprising? The attempted coup of Hitler? Tell me, when you happen upon a rape in progress and scuffle with the rapist and wind up killing him in the scuffle ... is that murder?

Or I suppose in the centuries before Christ was born, with such a modern system of jurisprudence and police, it was just a matter of reporting injustice to the local gendarme?

And that is my problem with so called critics, its not a search for truth ... not a search for understanding and context, but an almost absurd non-contextual analysis that basically says, "Well, if you are Mormon (or whatever faith), you are a murderer." It is self righteousness by deliberately slandering others ... because that is what truth and righteousness really look like?

Well, I am glad that so called truth seekers find 'truth' in seeing everyone who doesn't hypnotically follow their views as ... murderers. Because we all know that lds Christians preach murder. :roll:

All Muslims are clearly terrorists too btw
:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

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Post #39

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

For me the story from the BoM is a clear reference; that sometimes a murder was regarded as justified at Mormons. And I do not seem to be wrong, if I see in various books of the LDS:
"In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p.296)

This law, which is now the law of the State, granted unto the condemned murderer the privilege of choosing for himself whether he die by hanging, or whether he be shot and thus have his blood shed in harmony with the law of God; and thus atone, so far as it is in his power to atone, for the death of his victim. Almost without exception the condemned party chooses the latter death (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.136)

and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands....
There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p.247)

Just a word or two now, on the subject of blood atonement ... man may commit certain grievous sins —according to his light and knowledge—that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone—so far as in his power lies—for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.... Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressor beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf.... And men for certain crimes have had to atone as far as they could for their sins wherein they have placed themselves beyond the redeeming power of the blood of Christ (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.133-36)
All quotes from: Changing world of Mormonism

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Post #40

Post by stubbornone »

In short, you just skipped everything I wrote, ignoring the context of killing entirely, just to call Mormons murderers. You know even atheists can be religious zealots.

Thank you for proving that religious zealotry and irrationality belong to its critics.

Everyone who disagrees with me is a murderer. Nice.
The Ex-Mormon wrote: For me the story from the BoM is a clear reference; that sometimes a murder was regarded as justified at Mormons. And I do not seem to be wrong, if I see in various books of the LDS:
"In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p.296)

This law, which is now the law of the State, granted unto the condemned murderer the privilege of choosing for himself whether he die by hanging, or whether he be shot and thus have his blood shed in harmony with the law of God; and thus atone, so far as it is in his power to atone, for the death of his victim. Almost without exception the condemned party chooses the latter death (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.136)

and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands....
There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it ... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p.247)

Just a word or two now, on the subject of blood atonement ... man may commit certain grievous sins —according to his light and knowledge—that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone—so far as in his power lies—for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.... Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressor beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf.... And men for certain crimes have had to atone as far as they could for their sins wherein they have placed themselves beyond the redeeming power of the blood of Christ (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.133-36)
All quotes from: Changing world of Mormonism

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