The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

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sleepyhead
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The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

Post #1

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

In order to be involved in this discussion/debate you must register here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/g ... php?g=7076

I am the group owner (so much power for one person to have). I was active LDS for about a year, inactive for a few years and presently an inactive member of the Chruch of Christ (temple lot). My posts will largely delve into certain moral teachings of the book. If others want to go through the book chapter by chapter or to only discuss the book of Ether that's also ok.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #2

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

The 1st passage we can discuss is:
"Alma 62:41": 41 But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war; and many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility.

Is this saying that certain people will grow regardless of the circumstances they encounter? According to the Edgar Cayce material, there are certain highly evolved souls who want to come down and help us, but, God will only send these souls to families who have made adequate preparation. From the bible we know that God would only send Isaac after many years of Abraham and Sarah being married and they were able to work out all the kinks in there marriage.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #3

Post by Kuan »

sleepyhead wrote:Hello,

The 1st passage we can discuss is:
"Alma 62:41": 41 But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war; and many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility.
Is this saying that certain people will grow regardless of the circumstances they encounter?
Well, I think it is more like we all will grow according to our circumstances, personality, and experiences. The people being discussed had experienced a long war and many had become tired of it and so their views and hearts changed. We alll are like this too.
According to the Edgar Cayce material, there are certain highly evolved souls who want to come down and help us, but, God will only send these souls to families who have made adequate preparation.
I am not familiar with Edgar Cayce and I disagree with that. I think god sends people or angels, to help us when we need it and ask for it. God wont make our life easy though, he expects us to go through challenges and trials to grow, just as the people in that verse have.
From the bible we know that God would only send Isaac after many years of Abraham and Sarah being married and they were able to work out all the kinks in there marriage.
This is true, they worked through their trials and came out better off.
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Post #4

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

Unless someone else has another B of M topic let's discuss Lehi's dream. To be precise I'd like to try and define both the rod of iron, and the mist of darkness. As a conservative theist, my definition of the rod of iron would be the 1st 5 books of the bible. All other writings whether they are the writings of the prophets, the material in the NT, or the material given through Edgar Cayce, they would all need to conform to these 5 books. The midst of darkness would be all later writings that don't conform.

"1 Nephi 8:19": 19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.
"1 Nephi 8:20": 20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.
"1 Nephi 8:21": 21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
"1 Nephi 8:22": 22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
"1 Nephi 8:23": 23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
"1 Nephi 8:24": 24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

"1 Nephi 11:25": 25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.
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Post #5

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

Since no one responded to my previous topic I'm going to be more passive from now on. I'll just pose questions without inserting my opinion. The next topic I would like responses to is what is often called Moroni's promise.

"Moroni 10:3": 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down unto the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
"Moroni 10:4": 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
"Moroni 10:5": 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
"Moroni 10:6": 6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

The questions I have are:
1. What type of things can determined by the above process? Can I learn what stocks to buy? If not then what if they are part of a charitable trust?
2. Why would the Holy Ghost care one way or the other whether we believe the historical account given in the book of mormon?
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Post #6

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

My next topic is how do we define priestcraft. I went through the entire Book of mormon and found all references to priestcraft. I attempted to include all related literature which would bear some information on what priestcraft is. I believe the most informative reference is the actual definition provided in 2 Nephi 26:29. My interpretation of this definition is that the 1st part of the definition is the teaching that certain individuals (the leadership) have a special connection to God. The rest of the definition concerns why they promote themselves as special. In 2 nephi 10:5 it blames (either rightly or wrongly) the rejection of the Christ on the priests of the time because they taught the people to reject Christianity.

In Alma 1:3 the teaching (which Alma called priestcraft) was that the leadership should be popular and that they should be paid. In verse 16 it says that priestcraft was promoted in order to gain both riches and honor.

"2 Nephi 10:4": 4 For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent, and know that he be their God.
"2 Nephi 10:5": 5 But because of priestcrafts and iniquities, they at Jerusalem will stiffen their necks against him, that he be crucified.

"2 Nephi 26:29": 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
"2 Nephi 26:30": 30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love, and except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.
"2 Nephi 26:31": 31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

"Alma 1:2": 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength.
"Alma 1:3": 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.
"Alma 1:4": 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
"Alma 1:5": 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
"Alma 1:6": 6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching.
"Alma 1:7": 7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
"Alma 1:8": 8 Now the name of the man was Gideon; and it was he who was an instrument in thehands of God in delivering the people of Limhi out of bondage.
"Alma 1:9": 9 Now, because Gideon withstood him with the words of God he was wroth with Gideon, and drew his sword and began to smite him. $ Now Gideon being stricken with many years, therefore he was not able to withstand his blows, therefore he was slain by the sword.
"Alma 1:10": 10 And the man who slew him was taken by the people of the church, and was brought before Alma, to be judged according to the crimes which he had committed.
"Alma 1:11": 11 And it came to pass that he stood before Alma and pleaded for himself with much boldness.
"Alma 1:12": 12 But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
"Alma 1:13": 13 And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance.
"Alma 1:14": 14 Therefore thou art condemned to die, according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king; and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law.
"Alma 1:15": 15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.
"Alma 1:16": 16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

"3 Nephi 16:10": 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from
among them.

"3 Nephi 21:19": 19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes,
and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

"3 Nephi 30:2": 2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #7

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

There's several topics here. If someone would like to discuss one of the topics here or a new topic I can create a new thread.

I've been holding off on writing on Abinadi because Murad said he wanted to write something about him. I think I'd like to write something about the interaction between King Noah and Abinadi. The significance for today is the question of what actions should a ruler take when someone under his dominion raises an objection. In America President Adams jailed all those who disagreed. Woodrow Wilson (I think) did it during world war one. We had the 1950 hunt for communists. In recent times Bush had people shipped to free speech zones.
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Post #8

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

The BoM. I was so stupid anyway to believe in it!
I know today that the whole book is a swindle. That the three witnesses did not really see the golden plates; but in a "vision". That the BoM has many similarities to the manuscript of Spaulding; as well as the book of Ethan Smith (View of the Hebrews). That Smith; or who always was the author of this "printed chloroform"; as Mark Twain described it once; used, better misused unrestrainedly the Bible quotations . Talked about Jesus Christ long before Christ was born. And then all the archeological evidence which speaks against the BoM.
Who still thinks that the BoM is the word God; should have his mental condition examined.

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Post #9

Post by stubbornone »

The Ex-Mormon wrote: The BoM. I was so stupid anyway to believe in it!
I know today that the whole book is a swindle. That the three witnesses did not really see the golden plates; but in a "vision". That the BoM has many similarities to the manuscript of Spaulding; as well as the book of Ethan Smith (View of the Hebrews). That Smith; or who always was the author of this "printed chloroform"; as Mark Twain described it once; used, better misused unrestrainedly the Bible quotations . Talked about Jesus Christ long before Christ was born. And then all the archeological evidence which speaks against the BoM.
Who still thinks that the BoM is the word God; should have his mental condition examined.
Oh, the overwhelming archaeological evidence, eh? Tell me, what do we know about Ancient American Societies BEFORE the Maya? Right, nothing. Indeed, much of the Maya were swallowed in the jungles and left undiscovered for centuries. So, the reasonable presumption is that the Maya ... emerged from nothing?

And of course, a good civil discussion begins with a demand that your opponents question their mental sanity, eh?

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Post #10

Post by stubbornone »

sleepyhead wrote: Hello,

My next topic is how do we define priestcraft. I went through the entire Book of mormon and found all references to priestcraft. I attempted to include all related literature which would bear some information on what priestcraft is. I believe the most informative reference is the actual definition provided in 2 Nephi 26:29. My interpretation of this definition is that the 1st part of the definition is the teaching that certain individuals (the leadership) have a special connection to God. The rest of the definition concerns why they promote themselves as special. In 2 nephi 10:5 it blames (either rightly or wrongly) the rejection of the Christ on the priests of the time because they taught the people to reject Christianity.

In Alma 1:3 the teaching (which Alma called priestcraft) was that the leadership should be popular and that they should be paid. In verse 16 it says that priestcraft was promoted in order to gain both riches and honor.

"2 Nephi 10:4": 4 For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent, and know that he be their God.
"2 Nephi 10:5": 5 But because of priestcrafts and iniquities, they at Jerusalem will stiffen their necks against him, that he be crucified.

"2 Nephi 26:29": 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
"2 Nephi 26:30": 30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love, and except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.
"2 Nephi 26:31": 31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

"Alma 1:2": 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength.
"Alma 1:3": 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.
"Alma 1:4": 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
"Alma 1:5": 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
"Alma 1:6": 6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching.
"Alma 1:7": 7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
"Alma 1:8": 8 Now the name of the man was Gideon; and it was he who was an instrument in thehands of God in delivering the people of Limhi out of bondage.
"Alma 1:9": 9 Now, because Gideon withstood him with the words of God he was wroth with Gideon, and drew his sword and began to smite him. $ Now Gideon being stricken with many years, therefore he was not able to withstand his blows, therefore he was slain by the sword.
"Alma 1:10": 10 And the man who slew him was taken by the people of the church, and was brought before Alma, to be judged according to the crimes which he had committed.
"Alma 1:11": 11 And it came to pass that he stood before Alma and pleaded for himself with much boldness.
"Alma 1:12": 12 But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
"Alma 1:13": 13 And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance.
"Alma 1:14": 14 Therefore thou art condemned to die, according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king; and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law.
"Alma 1:15": 15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.
"Alma 1:16": 16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

"3 Nephi 16:10": 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from
among them.

"3 Nephi 21:19": 19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes,
and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

"3 Nephi 30:2": 2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.
I am not sure what you are asking about here? It seems pretty clear that this refers to the priests of other religions. Sort of the like Baal worship also had its priests, and they did indeed preach inequity and slander toward Christians and Jews did they not?

Is there any doubt that the priests of say the Aztecs, who practiced human sacrifice, would have been against the doctrine of Christ? For indeed they were, and the religion of the Aztecs is gone ... that of Christ is not.

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