Christians are Revolting - Sean Lauren

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Christians are Revolting - Sean Lauren

Post #1

Post by otseng »

This thread will debate the book Christians are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress, by Sean Lauren.

We will go through the book one chapter at a time and discuss the contents of each chapter. I anticipate we'll spend several days on each chapter and then move on to the next one. Please avoid jumping ahead, but you're free to discuss previous chapters (for those that join late). We'll end the debate with each person giving a general overview of the book. The thread will then be closed.

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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #11

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 6 by amortalman]

I think you make a fair point that my verbage is too encompassing, not distinguished enough, and stronger word-choice than necessary. I intended for it to be an intriguing introduction to engender a desire to understand these viewpoint from what follows, but it instead likely puts people off without knowing which camp of "Christian" they belong to "in my eyes." I will likely correct for this in a future revision.

I would like to clarify, however, that the book is not intended to denigrate Christians even if it might seem I do from lack of controlled linguistics. The true intent of the story is to reveal a Christianity that is indeed beautiful and worth following which I found via the attacks and brutality of current Christianity. I have found it hard to separate "look at this potential greatness" from "look at this currenty atrocity." With greater experience now, I would attempt to focus on the former far more than the latter, but I'm still not sure how easy it is to recognize a need for the fixes without recognizing what's broken. That's the dilemma which I believe is getting lost in the first chapter, but maybe I should leave that up to the story to demonstrate rather than simply spouting it early on.
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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #12

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 10 by ElCodeMonkey]

Sean, I do think you have much to contribute by way of your own experience with Christianity. I'm looking forward to reading on.

For years before my departure from Christianity the topic of "what's wrong with churchs today" was always coming up. I saw many things that bothered me and eventually contributed to my investigation of non-Christian viewpoints.

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Post #13

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 9 by jgh7]

That observation stuck out to me also because I can identify with it. The last two sentences especially rang true: "If a similar striving leads others to different conclusions, then what good is seeking? It would then seem more likely that our conclusions are derived from our own imaginings guiding our biases."

If the Holy Spirit is guiding those who sincerely seek God how can they be led in different directions?

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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #14

Post by Divine Insight »

amortalman wrote: For years before my departure from Christianity the topic of "what's wrong with churchs today" was always coming up. I saw many things that bothered me and eventually contributed to my investigation of non-Christian viewpoints.
The problem is that it really has nothing at all to do with "the churches of today". The problem with Christianity has been there from its very inception. It started right with the authors of the Gospels.

For example Paul wrote in the first chapter of Romans:

Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


You only need to point to Paul to see where this filth came from. Any modern day church that holds this same view is only regurgitating Paul's hatred of non-believers.

In fact, any modern day Christian can even argue with Christians who give non-believers respect and point to the words of Paul. Words that are over 2000 years old. So this has been with Christianity from the beginning.

In fact, I recently heard a really nasty sermon on a Christian radio station that was spewing this very hatred toward non-believers and using Paul's words to back up his sermon. So this isn't anything new.

Also, Matthew 5:17-18 has been with Christianity from the very beginning.

Matthew 5:
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


This gives every modern day Christian the right to use words attributed to Jesus to support every jot and tittle of the Old Testament. So again, this is part and parcel of the religion from the very beginning. You can't blame modern day churches for preaching Old Testament laws and moral principles when they have Jesus standing by every jot and tittle of it. This isn't anything new. It's been there from the very beginning.

Finally, if anything, modern day Christian churches are actually far less nasty today than they were throughout previous centuries. In the past the churches could have someone ex-communicated from the entire society or far worse. They used to burn witches, heretics and blasphemers at the stake.

Churches today are extremely passive, no doubt due to secular laws that prevent them from taking matters into their own hands.

But the point is that it has nothing to do with modern day churches going down-hill. This religion was a violent hateful religion from the get go.

Sure, it may be true that Jesus himself was trying to change this violent religion, but unfortunately Matthew put an end to that with 5:17-18. In fact, Matthew is the only place we see this, and many scholars have actually suggested that Matthew made these verses up because Matthew was trying to convince hardcore Jews who saw Jesus as changing the laws, so Matthew most likely tossed in the proclamation of 5:17-18 just to try to convince the hardcore Jews that Jesus didn't come to change their laws.

I agree that Matthew 5:17-18 is totally out-of-character compared with everything else that Jesus taught which was opposite to just about every jot and tittle in the Old Testament.

In any case, it makes no sense to try to blame this on "modern day churches" when this kind of rhetoric was written right into the original scriptures some 2000 years ago. This was part of Christianity from the very beginning. And Christianity has a very long history of extremely ugly and violent behavior. So this isn't anything new.
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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #15

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

You are forgetting that these writings came long AFTER Christianity started. The Bible itself came long after Christianity started. Our modern day Christianity is not what was created by Jesus himself. Jesus never preached the book of Romans nor any of the Gospels. So just because Christianity today wholeheartedly believes in the Bible doesn't mean that this was the case since the beginning of the written words. One needs to sit back and truly contemplate what Jesus truly taught in order to determine if what we have is what he truly taught. And since he taught that it would become corrupt, the only question, really, is in which ways?
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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

ElCodeMonkey wrote: [Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

You are forgetting that these writings came long AFTER Christianity started. The Bible itself came long after Christianity started. Our modern day Christianity is not what was created by Jesus himself. Jesus never preached the book of Romans nor any of the Gospels. So just because Christianity today wholeheartedly believes in the Bible doesn't mean that this was the case since the beginning of the written words. One needs to sit back and truly contemplate what Jesus truly taught in order to determine if what we have is what he truly taught. And since he taught that it would become corrupt, the only question, really, is in which ways?

I can certainly understand your "dream" Sean. But how can it be anything more than this? What can you point to as documenting what Jesus actually preached other than the Gospels?

You say that "Christianity" existed before the writing of the Gospels. This is certainly true since Saul was persecuting "Christians" before he himself became a "convert".

But the problem is that there are no documents documenting what Christianity supposedly stood for, or what Jesus supposedly taught prior to the writings of Paul, and then later those of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

Those are the writings that constitute the religion called "Chrsitianity". Not what you would like to think Jesus might have taught prior to what the Gospel rumors claim he taught.

The religion of "Christianity" includes the story of the virgin birth of Christ ordained and orchestrated by God himself through the virgin Mary. It includes the Gospel claims that God himself spoke from a cloud proclaiming Jesus to be his Son. It includes Jesus supposedly performing supernatural miracles (including casting evil demons out of humans and into pigs). It includes Christ being raised from the dead after 3 days of being dead. It includes Christ being carried up to heaven on a cloud to sit at the right hand of God.

Christianity isn't about what "you think" Jesus "might have taught" prior to the Gospel rumors having been written. It's far more involved than this. In fact, most Christians accept the concept of the "Trinity", the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, all being aspects of some monotheistic "Godhead".

Like Otseng suggested. Christians aren't likely to give the slightest hoot concerning what "you think" Jesus might have taught prior to the Gospels having been written.

You're actually going to deny the major pillars upon which Christianity actually stands (i.e. all those things I mentioned above and more). Christianity isn't about what "you think" Jesus might have taught, when you don't even have any documents to support those views. You certainly can't use the Gospel scriptures (although I see that in your book you most certainly do), but I'm afraid that's not going to hold any water. From the Christian perspective all you are doing is trying to shape the Gospel quotes from Jesus into something you prefer whilst ignoring many of the other claims they are making about Jesus' divinity and supernatural powers, etc. Not to mention the resurrection which is the cornerstone of Christianity. Deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead, and you deny Christianity. It really doesn't matter what "you think" Jesus might have taught.

~~~~~~

I just want to share with you a brief description of my own personal history.

I too was a "born again Christian" having accepted Christ as my savior. Unlike you I didn't do this as a 5-year-old but rather was a young teen. I was determined to become a preacher and preach the "Word of God". In order to do that I knew that I would need to fully understand the Bible. So I began to study it believing that I would find all the answers in the Bible. But instead of finding answers all I found was utterly absurd nonsense and self-contradiction. I finally realized that the Bible cannot possibly be true, and Jesus was most certainly not the Son of Yahweh, or any other God for that matter.

Later, I took a course on Buddhism and learned of Mahayana Buddhism. At that moment I realized that Jesus was most likely trying to bring the higher moral teachings of Mahayana Buddhism into his home religion. He may not have even thought of this philosophy as being "Buddhism". He may have simply saw it as a mystical spiritual philosophy that he felt could be worked into his own belief in God.

For me this explains everything that Jesus said and did according to the Gospel Rumors. Save for some things, which I personally don't believe Jesus ever said. Like Matthew 5:17-18 for example. I'm totally convinced that those words were made up by Matthew himself.

In any case, what would be the point in me writing a book "to Christians" trying to convince them that Jesus was most likely just a mortal man like the rest of us and was simply trying to bring the higher moral values of Mahayana Buddhism into his home culture?

There would be no point in trying to do that at all. Christians aren't interested in a "Mortal Jesus". If Jesus isn't the Son of God offering eternal life to whoever believes in him, then they have no interest in him at all. They would just as soon toss him in a dumpster at that point.

Christians aren't interested in moral values. Christians are interested in the promise of eternal life. Take that out of the picture and they couldn't care less what some mortal Jesus might have taught.

That's just the facts.

Christians aren't interested in morality. They are interested in eternal life. Period.

Note: Some Christians may very well be interested in morality, but that's just a coincidence. :D

What they are really interested in is eternal life. So they have no interest in a Jesus who merely taught morality. If he doesn't have the power to offer them eternal life, they'd dump him in a heartbeat.
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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #17

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]

I find it strange that you're unwilling to recognize that things can change in a religious climate. You cling to what Christianity is today and act as if it could never have been anything else. I have absolute proof that it was indeed something else based on the very fact that the Bible didn't even exist when Jesus preached and you acknowledged that fact. So why now must Christianity 100% be whatever it is now and today when we know it was not the same in the past? I think you ultimately agree with me that it was different and could have been any amount of who knows what in difference, but that you simply don't believe that I could possibly know what that difference is. Is that an accurate summation?

As for what the differences are, I believe I can make a perfectly coherent story and plausible explanation which is the best anyone can do with any religion that must be taken on faith. I argue that my coherent story makes far more sense and lacks all the contradictions that you found in modern Christianity which led you away from it to begin with. Therefore it is far more likely to be correct than current Christianity even if it still lacks an absolute proof. And given your understanding, it sounds like you may be doing and thinking similar things as I but without writing a book about it.

As for what Christians want, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to lump them all together as one complete unit. When I was a Christian, I simply wanted truth and I was indeed willing to look at it. I assume there are others out there, like me, who are interested in reason and better answers. I wrote the book for them even if they be few. The more that are reached, the more likelihood of success at eradicating what I deem to be a hostile Christianity. Not to say all Christians are hostile, but the current Christianity can breed the hostility so I'd like to see the mindset eradicated or redirected. It still contains eternal life as well even though I don't personally believe in that part.
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Post #18

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

I just want to start by saying that I have read the whole book, so even though we are going chapter by chapter, I do understand that some of the things that author feels and does at the beginning of the book does not apply toward the end. I also feel very much for the author due to the ostracism (and subsequent despair) that he experienced for his beliefs.

I am not as interested in the political aspect to the book (that is an american issue and I am not american; though to be fair, neither am I interested in the politics of the country I do live in). I will comment as I am able on those things that pertain to Christ and the truth that He has taught (in the hopes of "expounding the truth more accurately" in the same spirit as Priscilla and Aquila to dear Apollos. Acts 18:26.) That being said, here is one thing that caught my eye in the first paragraph:

“I cannot take this anymore! Judge me or judge him! Strike one of us dead with lightning and show once and for all who is in the right!�
Lauren, Sean. Christians Are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress (Kindle Location 107). Fool's Errand Development. Kindle Edition.


(cool that the reference comes right over with the quote)


I realize that the author is frustrated and confused by the things that he has been accused of yet again (he says so in the very same paragraph). But this reminds me of the time that some of the apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven on some Samaritans who would not receive Christ.

Christ rebuked them,

But turning He rebuked them and said, "Ye know not of what spirit ye are". Luke 9:55



My Lord did not cast His disciples away for this error, but He did rebuke them (Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Rev 3:19) so as to teach them, train them, correct them. So that they could know the Spirit they are of.


Christians are not to call curses down upon anyone (including ourselves). Christ told us that we would be ostracized, persecuted, called names, cast out, etc. That comes with the territory; and He warned us ahead of time that this would happen if we choose to pick up our cross and follow Him. He taught us (in word and deed) to:

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." Luke 6:29

He also taught us to forgive those who wrong us (and ask forgiveness for them).


We receive peace in doing this as well - HIS peace.



**


I think one of the main themes of the book is reforming Christianity; bringing Christianity back to its original 'intention' (for the lack of a better word). But if Christianity (the religion) was not something that Christ formed to begin with, then the religion would not need to be reformed; it would instead need to be come OUT OF.

"Stop touching the unclean thing and I will take you in."


But I am trying not to get too far ahead of where we are at, especially knowing that these things are touched upon later in the book as well.



Peace again to you!

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Post #19

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 17 by tam]

Excellent insight, tam. You actually make a good point that I should not be trying to reform Christianity. Jesus even said that if salt loses its saltiness it's good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled. What, then, do I call this... thing... that I am re...vealing?
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Re: Ch. 1 - Are most Christians filled with hate and bloodlu

Post #20

Post by amortalman »

Divine Insight wrote:
amortalman wrote: For years before my departure from Christianity the topic of "what's wrong with churches today" was always coming up. I saw many things that bothered me and eventually contributed to my investigation of non-Christian viewpoints.
The problem is that it really has nothing at all to do with "the churches of today". The problem with Christianity has been there from its very inception. It started right with the authors of the Gospels.
Actually, it had everything to do with the church I belonged to and others like it. I had something totally different in mind when I wrote that. I apologize for not stating the problems.

The point is, I began to notice a troubling trend in Southern Baptist churches that had been slowly creeping in over the previous 15 years. It had nothing to do with the things you mentioned. Some of us felt that churches were compromising long-held traditions to attract larger congregations. That we had become weak in our faith and there was a lot of people just "playing church." It was beginning to look phony, without the power of God behind it. This was my mindset at the time.

I'm only speaking of my own observations, those I was close to in church, and what I was reading about other churches. From all that I saw none of the hate speech and hateful attitudes that you attribute to Christians in general. But again, I can't speak for other denominations.

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