The God Delusion - Chapter 8

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The God Delusion - Chapter 8

Post #1

Post by otseng »

What does Dawkins say is wrong with religion?
Does this claim make religion false?

McCulloch's questions:
Is religion itself bad or just certain instances of religion?
Are non-believers justified in being hostile to religion?

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Post #11

Post by otseng »

Scrotum wrote:I had a interesting telephonecall involving Otseng,
It's not often that I get to talk on the phone with a fellow forum member. And we did have a good conversation. Thanks for calling me. O:)
Religion is bad in almost, if not all, instances.
Again, I'll admit that bad has been done in the name of religion. But I'll also say that good has been done in the name of religion. And probably more good than bad.
My main objection to religion is the clear incentive to lie to people, especially children.
If parents believe in what they are teaching to their children, then it can not be called lying.
Religion is the main cause of most of the wars we have had in the world.
Care to back up this claim?

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Post #12

Post by otseng »

QED wrote:How is this a bad thing? Well, it's tantamount to training people to be irrational for one thing -- and for another, it divides human beings into different factions (your religion will be overwhelmingly likely to be that of your parents/geographical location -- and will differ from that of a person in a different part of the world).
Likewise, we should dissolve all countries since they cause factions and wars. Or dissolve sports teams cause they cause animosity between devoted fans.

Also, I'd disagree that religious people are "trained to be irrational". Most of the US Ivy league universities had Christian roots. No Sunday Schools are teaching, "here's how to be irrational".
In principle anyone and everyone. If beliefs born out of the scientific method are in discord with the actual world, any detectable discord is -- by definition -- open to correction.
What I was addressing was your statement, "if a belief which leads to some significant behavior cannot be validated (in principle) by others who may wish to question it, then it should not be granted such freedoms."

People should not be denied freedom of belief. No group or individual should be able to dictate what another person can or cannot believe, no matter how irrational one might think it is.
All are welcome to show that they have detected that discord.
Certainly. People are free to express how they think others could be wrong.
Your President announced that his foreign policy was, in effect, a response to a "calling from beyond the stars". While world leaders retain respect when personal revelation informs their decision making, I think we are consigned to the barbarism of the past.
Well, I believe God told me that the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq. O:)

I would suggest that we go back to the barbarism days of the past in which the king went out to battle with his army. If Bush is willing to declare war and join in the battle, then I would certainly respect his decision more.
do you really think it healthy for human civilization to built-up from societies of irrational thinkers?
I'm not saying that we should promote irrationality. But people not always rational either. We all make decisions that are not rational. If we only had a society of rational thinkers, I believe there'd be very few here.

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Post #13

Post by Confused »

otseng wrote:
Confused wrote: I think his point was that, in his opinion, Wise couldn't reconcile his science knowledge with that of scripture, so Wise discarded science in favor of the literal scripture. Though this was a choice that Wise made, Dawkins seems to feel that religion corrupted the potential he could have provided to future science. However, That is his opinion, not the opinion of Wise. Wise appears to have no problem with it.
And if Wise has no problem with it, why should even Dawkins care? It's a free country. If people willingly choose to believe something, no matter how absurd someone else might think, they should have the freedom to believe in it.
I agree.
otseng wrote:
Confused wrote:But once again, it seems like he is referring to the extreme literalists who undermine science, not the "middle of the ground".
Does he give any examples to illustrate this claim?
Honestly, I can't find anything concrete I could use to back this up. I could site the vague references he makes to stem cell research, evolution, etc... But nothing specific. This is why I have a hard time seeing this chapter as nothing more than a slippery slope. Simply because some religious people become extremists and kill civilians (suicide bombers, 9-11, etc.) doesn't mean that all religious people will become extremists.
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Post #14

Post by jjg »

The Twentieth Century ahs been an experiment in secular ideology and there has been more wars and inihilation of people than in the whole of human history put together occured in one century.

70 million in Communist China, millions under Stalin.

This is where Dawkins is being intellectually dishonest. The Holocaust and Nazi germany was the result of social darwinism and eugenics not religion. It was inspired by great atheists like Nietzche.

Hitler believed science would eventually take over religion and his warped view of religion was similar to Comte's sociology view of religion mixed with occultism.

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Post #15

Post by Confused »

jjg wrote:The Twentieth Century ahs been an experiment in secular ideology and there has been more wars and inihilation of people than in the whole of human history put together occured in one century.

70 million in Communist China, millions under Stalin.

This is where Dawkins is being intellectually dishonest. The Holocaust and Nazi germany was the result of social darwinism and eugenics not religion. It was inspired by great atheists like Nietzche.

Hitler believed science would eventually take over religion and his warped view of religion was similar to Comte's sociology view of religion mixed with occultism.
The holocaust and Nazi Germany was the result of racism, hatred, and power. Stalin, China, etc... All the result of hatred.

Hilter hated Jews. He persecuted them based on their religion. But he did it for power. Don't confuse social dawinism with hate and politics.
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Post #16

Post by jjg »

Hitler persecuted the Jews because he believed they were racially inferior to his arian race. Had nothing to do with religion.

He sent miillions of Catholics to thge concentration camps as well. It had nothing to do with religious views.

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Post #17

Post by Confused »

jjg wrote:Hitler persecuted the Jews because he believed they were racially inferior to his arian race. Had nothing to do with religion.

He sent miillions of Catholics to thge concentration camps as well. It had nothing to do with religious views.
Perhaps you missed the "But he did it for power" in my previous post?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
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Post #18

Post by jjg »

No, I didn't miss it. He also convinced the German people that they were a superior race and the Jews were inferior through social darwinism.

Something Dawkins mysteriously seems to overlook. He also overlooks any good thing the Church has done like being the largest charitable organization in the world.

He also mysteriously overlooks all the terrible things that atheist organizations like Communism has done especially since both atheism and violence are the result of irrationalism.

It certainly meaningless and wrong to describe Hitler as a "lapsed Catholic."

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Post #19

Post by Scrotum »

jjg wrote:No, I didn't miss it. He also convinced the German people that they were a superior race and the Jews were inferior through social darwinism.

Something Dawkins mysteriously seems to overlook. He also overlooks any good thing the Church has done like being the largest charitable organization in the world.

He also mysteriously overlooks all the terrible things that atheist organizations like Communism has done especially since both atheism and violence are the result of irrationalism.

It certainly meaningless and wrong to describe Hitler as a "lapsed Catholic."
1. The Holocaust was not known to the world until after the second world war. And the people of germany (civilians) certainly did not know about it, nor stod behind it).

2. And where does the Church gets its money from?

3. Atheism is not organized, and does not have a specific "atheist organizations". You can certainly find groups that promots atheism, and demands its membes to be, but atheism just means the lack of, or acceptance of any gods, and other politcal or privat opinions are none-relevant.

4. Claiming that the Chancellor was "not a Christian" puts you in the position of telling other people what they are. What i understood is that you are a Christian if you accept, or perhaps even believe in the existense of Jesus Christ as your saviour. And Adolf Hitler was certainly Christian, and the Church during this time stood behind his hate for Judaism, which perhaps you are not aware of because of lack of historical education(?).
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Post #20

Post by jjg »

What do you mean the people of Germany didn't know?

Have you ever heard of crystal night when the people throughout Germany gathered around synagogues to watch them burn or watch the Jews put in cattle cars? Where did they think they were going?

Hitler spoke of the final solution to the Jewish problem in speeches.

The Church gets money from catholics who want to help others in charity.

Communism whether Stalinism or maoism is driven by atheism. Why do you think Stalin gathered up priests and starved millions of Ukranian catholics. What do you think is going on in Tibet with the killing of Buddhist monks right now?

He might have been born in a Catholic family, but certainly didn't follow the Catholic Church and warped jesus into some arian view that had nothing to do with Christianity.Dawkins knows this and tries to get aropund it with the "lapsed" Catholic comment.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_ ... ge_en.html

To the contrary, as the link shows the Church stood up against the nazis and Catholics like Miep geiss who helped Anne Frank.

Perhaps you are not aware that Dawkins description and warping of the Jewish faith in the God delusion is nothing BUT RELIGIOUS ANTI-SEMITISM.

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