The God Delusion - Chapter 8

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The God Delusion - Chapter 8

Post #1

Post by otseng »

What does Dawkins say is wrong with religion?
Does this claim make religion false?

McCulloch's questions:
Is religion itself bad or just certain instances of religion?
Are non-believers justified in being hostile to religion?

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Post #21

Post by jjg »

Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.

When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals. It is the principle which establishes the target of life, and when it is repudiated, life loses all sacredness and inviolability.

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Post #22

Post by Scrotum »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.

When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals. It is the principle which establishes the target of life, and when it is repudiated, life loses all sacredness and inviolability.
Eh, ok.

So i guess you gona give proof for this? No, dont mind that, Answer me this question: The Countries of Norway and Sweden, which are consider some of the "best in the world", using any logical standard, have the some of the highest standard of living, prtactically erradicated poverty and good education, and (as a consequence) are Atheists, how does that follow the line of "irrationalism"?

The Scandinavian nations have very little "violence", And in contrast, United States, an extremely Christian nation, is one of the most vilent nations on plnet earth.

Explain.


And of course, how is it irrationalism? When it is open to all possibilities that are logical (real)?
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Post #23

Post by Confused »

jjg wrote:No, I didn't miss it. He also convinced the German people that they were a superior race and the Jews were inferior through social darwinism.

Something Dawkins mysteriously seems to overlook. He also overlooks any good thing the Church has done like being the largest charitable organization in the world.

He also mysteriously overlooks all the terrible things that atheist organizations like Communism has done especially since both atheism and violence are the result of irrationalism.

It certainly meaningless and wrong to describe Hitler as a "lapsed Catholic."
Where is this evidence that he used social Darwinism to convince the German people they were superior?

I agree, he does overlook the good. I never claimed he didn't.

Give me one horrible thing that an "atheist organization" did in the name of atheism. Recall, not for power or for influence. But because they believed the world needed to be rid of anti-religious thought.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
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Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
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Post #24

Post by Confused »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.

When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals. It is the principle which establishes the target of life, and when it is repudiated, life loses all sacredness and inviolability.
Care to explain how atheism is a consequence of irrationalism? How does atheism deny any evidence of cause or purpose?

And I don't think Dawkins implies any of this about atheism, so is this simply your opinion?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #25

Post by bernee51 »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism.
That is a mighty big statement...based on what?
jjg wrote: Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.
Ah I see...based on a non-sequitor.

How is atheism i.e. a non-belief in god(s) a 'denial of cause and purpose'? How does atheism refuse to 'consider the ultimates'?

And... while you are at it...what exactly are the 'ultimates'?
jjg wrote: When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals.
Thus we get crusaders, conquistadores and suicide bombers.
Last edited by bernee51 on Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

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Post #26

Post by bernee51 »

jjg wrote: Communism whether Stalinism or maoism is driven by atheism.
No it is driven by communist ideology. The atheism bit only comes in because the chruch is seen as a corrupting influence.
jjg wrote: Why do you think Stalin gathered up priests and starved millions of Ukranian catholics.
As an aside...Stalin studied to be a priest. Stalin did not do these things in the name of atheism.
jjg wrote: What do you think is going on in Tibet with the killing of Buddhist monks right now?
No just the monks...again, communist ideology.
jjg wrote: To the contrary, as the link shows the Church stood up against the nazis and Catholics like Miep geiss who helped Anne Frank.
The Vatican gave visas to and arranged the extraction and transport of nazis after the war. How do you think the likes of Klaus Barbie got to (catholic) South America? The incoming Pope Pius X11 sent a telegram to Hitler when he (the pope) ascended the throne giving his support.

The vatican knew what was going on and not so tacitly supported ridding the world of the "Christ killers"
jjg wrote: Perhaps you are not aware that Dawkins description and warping of the Jewish faith in the God delusion is nothing BUT RELIGIOUS ANTI-SEMITISM.
Really how so?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #27

Post by QED »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.

When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals. It is the principle which establishes the target of life, and when it is repudiated, life loses all sacredness and inviolability.
KCBS wrote:Glasgow police chief Willie Rae said a suspicious device was found on a man wrestled to the ground by officers at Glasgow airport and hospitalized in critical condition with severe burns. John Smeaton, who saw the attack, said the man shouted "Allah, Allah'' as he was detained.
No doubt this failed suicide bomber would tell us that he knew exactly what his purpose was and who it was that had given it to him. He would not accept that there was any ambiguity in the source of order we see in our universe -- for him it simply must have been the work of a supreme being and that being would have set all in motion for a reason -- one which he was convinced he had arrived at -- by a process which I would argue was tantamount to guesswork. Neither would the man on fire probably have any appreciation of the dissolution of cause and effect at the scale on which all forms of matter and energy are composed. Too bad -- a closer acquaintance with the actual makeup of the world could have led him on the only truly rational course open to us -- admission that we don't know even know the ultimate questions, let alone their answers.

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Post #28

Post by otseng »

Confused wrote: Give me one horrible thing that an "atheist organization" did in the name of atheism.
My circle is mainly confined to Christian organizations. So, I am not familiar with atheist organizations. What atheist organizations are there?

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Post #29

Post by QED »

otseng wrote:
Confused wrote: Give me one horrible thing that an "atheist organization" did in the name of atheism.
My circle is mainly confined to Christian organizations. So, I am not familiar with atheist organizations. What atheist organizations are there?
We seem to gone off-topic. Whether or not atheism is worse than theism is besides the point. As per the questions in the OP; is religion itself bad or just certain instances of religion? Are non-believers justified in being hostile to religion?

As the set of people who do not believe in the existence of God(s) (an unorganized set it would seem) atheists have every reason to be cautious about any religion presenting their interpretation of world-data as final. Much of the data is testimony of personal revelation which, by being experimentally unrepeatable, relies on our faith in human veracity. We might take a consensus view that any information offering us a good way to lead our lives is welcome, but it seems patently absurd that we should grant such a high status to the claimed sources for this kind of information.

Philosophers long before the OT were concerned with matters relating to human conduct and would be keen to see their views realized in laws for all men. But the practical problems of creating sufficient authority to enforce these laws would best be solved by ascribing them to an authority apparently higher than man. Thus is seems highly probable that the monotheistic paradigm was created to provide such a solution.

This state of affairs is, I think, highly plausible and at the very least we ought to admit it as a possibility. In this case there ought to be some caveat in religion that reflects the possibility that the words could be of man and not of God. Of course this defeats the whole purpose of religion as a solution to authority -- which is why we are still stuck with all the dogma today.

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Post #30

Post by jjg »

The irrational and emotional statements made here just verify what I have said.

Statements like Communism with its manifesto didn't believe in forcing atheism through violence and that Karl Marx's philosophy incorporated endless violence.

Norway and Scandinavia are atheist. Places in Scandinavia like Copenhagen have no crime.

Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.

I you don't learn from history I guess you'll repeat it.

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