The God Delusion - Chapter 8

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otseng
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The God Delusion - Chapter 8

Post #1

Post by otseng »

What does Dawkins say is wrong with religion?
Does this claim make religion false?

McCulloch's questions:
Is religion itself bad or just certain instances of religion?
Are non-believers justified in being hostile to religion?

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QED
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Post #31

Post by QED »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.
jjg wrote:The irrational and emotional statements made here just verify what I have said.

Statements like Communism with its manifesto didn't believe in forcing atheism through violence and that Karl Marx's philosophy incorporated endless violence.

Norway and Scandinavia are atheist. Places in Scandinavia like Copenhagen have no crime.

Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.
I happen to think it highly improbable that God exists. Am I irrational? Can you explain why the only rational belief is that God exists when there appears to be so much leeway for another interpretation? This explanation of yours could resolve numerous ambiguities: for example the problem I posed in the debating topic titled Our Universe: one of many or specially designed?

If, on the other hand, your definition of irrational is simply "doesn't agree with jjg" then I think your conclusion that it is no use reasoning with such a person would badly backfire on you.

twobitsmedia

Post #32

Post by twobitsmedia »

jjg wrote:Atheism is a consequence of irrationalism. Irrationality is essentially a denial of cause and purpose, and atheism likewise refuses to consider the ultimates.

When man loses his reason, he becomes violent, because reason is a faculty which gives us purpose, goals, ends, and ideals. It is the principle which establishes the target of life, and when it is repudiated, life loses all sacredness and inviolability.


Actually, I think this had merit, but it is an outdated theory. Once upon a time the opposite of truth was considered false, and that which was considered irrational was the opposite of rational. "Reason" became challenged in the early part of the last century with people like Hegel and Soren Kierkegaard (among others) who basically just challenged traditional thought . The challenges created a "synthesis" which said right does not have to be the opposite of wrong. And irrational does not have to be the opposite of rational. In fact "rational" then became subjective and in many respects relative. So athiesm is not the opposite of reality, if one decides that reality is based on the Bible. It has now become "rational" based on subjective reality. In which case, one who claims to be athiest has already considered the ultimates....and they have reasoned that "theism" is not one of them. Hence, tell an athiest they will go to hell, and you will be laughed at. Tell them they are divorced from being "rational," and you might as well set yourself on fire becasue if you don't they will.

I am not sure how one can lose reason and go directly to violence or even lose purpose. Unless I am a violent person and I thought my "theistic" beliefs gave me a reason and purpose and to not be violent. But that would be a subjective judgment based on myself being violent and assuming everyone else is to.
(For the record, I am not violent...just making a point :D )

I think there are people who have not reasoned why they do and believe the things they do and people who believe they have a purpose, but can't ID the reason.

I finished Dawkins book last week. And I know my comments aren't from the book, but I couldn't help wanting to respond to this.

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Post #33

Post by Confused »

jjg wrote:The irrational and emotional statements made here just verify what I have said.

Statements like Communism with its manifesto didn't believe in forcing atheism through violence and that Karl Marx's philosophy incorporated endless violence.

Norway and Scandinavia are atheist. Places in Scandinavia like Copenhagen have no crime.

Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.

I you don't learn from history I guess you'll repeat it.
History repeats itself regardless of the lessons learned. It is the nature of the beast.

Ad hominems are really a poor substitute.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #34

Post by Confused »

otseng wrote:
Confused wrote: Give me one horrible thing that an "atheist organization" did in the name of atheism.
My circle is mainly confined to Christian organizations. So, I am not familiar with atheist organizations. What atheist organizations are there?
I am no more familiar with any than you, this is why I asked jjg to provide the information of such.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #35

Post by Confused »

Confused wrote:
jjg wrote:The irrational and emotional statements made here just verify what I have said.

Statements like Communism with its manifesto didn't believe in forcing atheism through violence and that Karl Marx's philosophy incorporated endless violence.

Norway and Scandinavia are atheist. Places in Scandinavia like Copenhagen have no crime.

Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.

I you don't learn from history I guess you'll repeat it.
History repeats itself regardless of the lessons learned. It is the nature of the beast.

Ad hominems are really a poor substitute to default to when you have nothing else to contribute.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #36

Post by Scrotum »

jjg wrote:The irrational and emotional statements made here just verify what I have said.

Statements like Communism with its manifesto didn't believe in forcing atheism through violence and that Karl Marx's philosophy incorporated endless violence.

Norway and Scandinavia are atheist. Places in Scandinavia like Copenhagen have no crime.

Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.

I you don't learn from history I guess you'll repeat it.
I am just confused here, did you miss to answer the question?


You claim that atheism is irrational and caused violence etcetera I have showed you an example that you are wrong, You wish not to face this, so what is up with that?


The Scandinavian countries, lets use culture definition of "Scandinavia", which would include Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland and Denmark, are ALL superior to, lets say, United States which is a Highly religous country.

How do you explain this?

Scandinavian countries ->None-Religious
United States ->Relgiious

Scandinavian countries ->Less violence
United States ->Extremely violent.



Does this not go AGAINST your claim???
T: ´I do not believe in gravity, it´s just a theory

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Post #37

Post by bernee51 »

jjg wrote:
Since atheists like yourselves are irrational, there is no use reasoning with you.
Does this dummy spit mean you are taking you bat and ball and going home?
jjg wrote: I you don't learn from history I guess you'll repeat it
Suicide bombers are a repeat of history...from the genocide of the Midianites to the crudades to the conquistadores to worldwide jihad...religous belief seeks to divide into petty tribes.

When will we ever learn?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #38

Post by bernee51 »

twobitsmedia wrote: In which case, one who claims to be athiest has already considered the ultimates....
What are the 'ultimates' I have supposed to have considered.
twobitsmedia wrote:
Hence, tell an athiest they will go to hell, and you will be laughed at. Tell them they are divorced from being "rational," and you might as well set yourself on fire becasue if you don't they will.
Burnings are very much part of religious and ideological history...books, witches, pagan temples, libraries....

Why would I want to burn you because I don't beleive in god?
twobitsmedia wrote:
I am not sure how one can lose reason and go directly to violence or even lose purpose.
Perhaps the violence of the ideologist is not reasoned.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

twobitsmedia

Post #39

Post by twobitsmedia »

bernee51 wrote:
What are the 'ultimates' I have supposed to have considered.
I presume the ultimates in the thiest position would be "hell." But since God doesn't exist, I suppose the consideration didnt take long. Any other "ulitmates" would be relative from whence you came from....your back ground, your "ism" of choice, etc.

twobitsmedia wrote:
Hence, tell an athiest they will go to hell, and you will be laughed at. Tell them they are divorced from being "rational," and you might as well set yourself on fire becasue if you don't they will.
Burnings are very much part of religious and ideological history...books, witches, pagan temples, libraries....

Why would I want to burn you because I don't beleive in god?
It's a figure of speech. Substitute whatever you want.
twobitsmedia wrote:
I am not sure how one can lose reason and go directly to violence or even lose purpose.
Perhaps the violence of the ideologist is not reasoned.
I think that is the point I was trying to make. The "violent" nature is theologized. But still prevalent.

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Post #40

Post by QED »

bernee51 wrote:
twobitsmedia wrote: In which case, one who claims to be athiest has already considered the ultimates....
What are the 'ultimates' I have supposed to have considered.
I suspect that a non-scientifically minded theist might imagine that things experienced in a human populated, Newtonian, low-temperature, macroscopically scaled world -- such as purpose, cause and effect, time equalling zero etc. would all be ultimate questions with trivially obvious answers.

As I noted earlier, a closer acquaintance with the detailed makeup of the world would probably result in the admission that we don't know even know the ultimate questions, let alone their answers yet.

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