For believers only please...

[lorene]

Did Jesus have flesh? Of course He had a body and in that regard flesh, but I am meaning flesh like did He have to war with His flesh or rather sin in His flesh?(Could He have sin in the flesh and still be sinless?)

could the first temptation be a sign of His fleshly warfare?

[riverslivnwtr]

Isn't the fasting for 40 days/desert/temptation story really an account of ascetic practice, turned into a narrative about Jesus' triumph? the idea that it literally happened, and the move to somehow formulize it into doctrine seem beside the point. the meaning of the story and how it functions in the tradition seems to be more the point.

Jesus is our example..

he demonstrates how to over come temptation by the sentences which addressed each temptation..and what he said is of the utmost importance as I see it because I saw in what said to be of supreme caliber when you take into account his being the only successful against a tempter...

he established the Law of God as his guide...and used it as light in this dark world..
he went only by what was written..and in the proper context so that we who should come after him could follow on in his steps..

I agree.
Still doesn't mean it happened or needed to happen. It's a GREAT story.

Well it does means that it happened, because it unlocks the whole foundation of the bible..The foundation of living by what is written , and is the only source of how to exactly achieve that success..It is wisdom beyond the comprehension of many a lofty idealed saints, who never understood this basic principal, only revealed in Jesus ..who cited the Law as the only means of defeating the enemy with the very sentences he cited in the temptation..
man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God...
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God,
and Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shall thou serve...

These are the three points of temptation which Jesus susceeded gloriously...

It doesn't establish any key if one is not a literalist.
You've not established historicity, you've only made a circular argument based on a faith claim.
There is no devil. He's a metaphor.
The story is a magic legend. About Jesus' character, about the human challenge, and more. He's seen a s a god-man.
But it didn't happen.

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...but for me it was easy to believe as I began to read the new Testament the first time... i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

you make me feel honored

[Slopeshoulder]

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...
[/quiote]
I am a believer. I'm not a literalist.
But you knew that, yet you still presume to have some priveleged status based on your magical personal version of Christianity.

but for me it was easy to believe

Kindly define belief.

as I began to read the new Testament the first time...

Yeah, I read it too. I also studied it in college and in seminary. It didn't make me a literalist.

i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

I'm glad it is meaningful for you, seriously. It is for me too. But all you've got, as far as literal historicity goes, is a personal interpreatation and tired binary arguments that you call sense and I call psychological projection, weak logic, and magical thinking. Where does that leave us?

you make me feel honored

I'd rather make you feel humble and self-doubting.

[riverslivnwtr]

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...
[/quiote]
I am a believer. I'm not a literalist.
But you knew that, yet you still presume to have some priveleged status based on your magical personal version of Christianity.

but for me it was easy to believe

Kindly define belief.

as I began to read the new Testament the first time...

Yeah, I read it too. I also studied it in college and in seminary. It didn't make me a literalist.

i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

I'm glad it is meaningful for you, seriously. It is for me too. But all you've got, as far as literal historicity goes, is a personal interpreatation and tired binary arguments that you call sense and I call psychological projection, weak logic, and magical thinking. Where does that leave us?

you make me feel honored

I'd rather make you feel humble and self-doubting.

well there you go your last statement reveals you true faith ...it amounts to nothing..what believer would want another to doubt?

all of my experiences with Jesus are textbook , yet you went to college and seminary and did not find it to be so..that also defines your belief, as if you could trick God who knows you heart before you ever had one..

I have the Holy Spirit for my teacher....Jesus said he would do it..ye we have so many who had o go to school to find out What?

I want you to know Jesus is real...keep on looking..

[Slopeshoulder]

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...

I am a believer. I'm not a literalist.
But you knew that, yet you still presume to have some priveleged status based on your magical personal version of Christianity.

but for me it was easy to believe

Kindly define belief.

as I began to read the new Testament the first time...

Yeah, I read it too. I also studied it in college and in seminary. It didn't make me a literalist.

i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

I'm glad it is meaningful for you, seriously. It is for me too. But all you've got, as far as literal historicity goes, is a personal interpreatation and tired binary arguments that you call sense and I call psychological projection, weak logic, and magical thinking. Where does that leave us?

you make me feel honored

I'd rather make you feel humble and self-doubting.

well there you go your last statement reveals you true faith ...it amounts to nothing..what believer would want another to doubt?

You know nothing of my true faith, and I think it amounts to something.
I was taught that doubt is essential to faith, otherwise it is smug self love, the wrong kind of simplicity, and possiblly a door to idolatry. Faithful doubt goes back to at least Augustine. So theologians, spiritual directors, and seminary faculty would, to answer your question. Especially when one's faith seems so based in magic and idiosyncratic interpretations of experience, unchecked by community.
I suggest you learn what you are talking about before you presume to assess my faith.

all of my experiences with Jesus are textbook , yet you went to college and seminary and did not find it to be so..that also defines your belief, as if you could trick God who knows you heart before you ever had one..

I truly cannot find even a shred of logic or sense in that to even reply to.
You're just preaching...I think. Please, I listen to well known, published, and credentialed people, so save your breath. I'm here to discuss and debate, not hear your rants about spirit, water, and bellies.

I have the Holy Spirit for my teacher....Jesus said he would do it..ye we have so many who had o go to school to find out What?

You shock easily. I leave to your teacher then. Funny, it's the same as mine though. Hmm...

I want you to know

Is that debate, or preaching?

Jesus is real...

Define Jesus. Kindly use the best scholarly methods of bibical exegesis and theology.
Define is. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Define real. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Once we define terms, we can talk.
Otherwise you have probably made an analytically empty/meaningless assertion/utterance.

keep on looking..

No need. I found. And I thank heaven it isn't what you think.

[Jester]

Moderator Warning

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...but for me it was easy to believe as I began to read the new Testament the first time... i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

you make me feel honored

Arguments that work only for those who fit one's idea of a believer are not arguments, they are preaching.
As this is a debate site, we do expect that members support their statements with logic and/or evidence.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[riverslivnwtr]

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...

I am a believer. I'm not a literalist.
But you knew that, yet you still presume to have some priveleged status based on your magical personal version of Christianity.

but for me it was easy to believe

Kindly define belief.

as I began to read the new Testament the first time...

Yeah, I read it too. I also studied it in college and in seminary. It didn't make me a literalist.

i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

I'm glad it is meaningful for you, seriously. It is for me too. But all you've got, as far as literal historicity goes, is a personal interpreatation and tired binary arguments that you call sense and I call psychological projection, weak logic, and magical thinking. Where does that leave us?

you make me feel honored

I'd rather make you feel humble and self-doubting.

well there you go your last statement reveals you true faith ...it amounts to nothing..what believer would want another to doubt?

You know nothing of my true faith, and I think it amounts to something.
I was taught that doubt is essential to faith, otherwise it is smug self love, the wrong kind of simplicity, and possiblly a door to idolatry. Faithful doubt goes back to at least Augustine. So theologians, spiritual directors, and seminary faculty would, to answer your question. Especially when one's faith seems so based in magic and idiosyncratic interpretations of experience, unchecked by community.
I suggest you learn what you are talking about before you presume to assess my faith.

all of my experiences with Jesus are textbook , yet you went to college and seminary and did not find it to be so..that also defines your belief, as if you could trick God who knows you heart before you ever had one..

I truly cannot find even a shred of logic or sense in that to even reply to.
You're just preaching...I think. Please, I listen to well known, published, and credentialed people, so save your breath. I'm here to discuss and debate, not hear your rants about spirit, water, and bellies.

I have the Holy Spirit for my teacher....Jesus said he would do it..ye we have so many who had o go to school to find out What?

You shock easily. I leave to your teacher then. Funny, it's the same as mine though. Hmm...

I want you to know

Is that debate, or preaching?

Jesus is real...

Define Jesus. Kindly use the best scholarly methods of bibical exegesis and theology.
Define is. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Define real. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Once we define terms, we can talk.
Otherwise you have probably made an analytically empty/meaningless assertion/utterance.

keep on looking..

No need. I found. And I thank heaven it isn't what you think.

Jesus is the son of God my Father in heaven, he is God in flesh; before that, he was God's Word but became flesh or substance made in the image of God the Father....this substance we could touch with our hands , had blood which was shed for our sins, which are behavior's which are opposed to the rule of God's own will. Jesus Christ died on a Cross, but rose the third day from the dead and ascended into heaven and is sat down at the right hand of God, my Father in heaven, expecting till all his enemies be made his footstool, according to the scriptures..

as I said before I received this Holy Spirit and that's how I know..that the gospel is true...it is the only way one can know for sure that Christ is risen from the dead..
reason can never satisfy God.. he chose to make the playing field even for all..
by confirming his word to each individual ..the scriptures declare this repeatedly; this is why Jesus demanded of his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem till they be endued with power..,, this power is defined as the Holy Spirit baptism ; which is separate from water baptism..

Any questions that I have ever had have always been answered by the Holy Spirit..as I recall , I never verbalized but meditated and wondered.. The holy Spirit would answer me with a scripture or promise or commandment....

he even shows me in the bible that this is the way Written in Jeremiah 31:31-34..and then also Isaiah 28:10 saying line upon line and precept upon precept..
so by writing in my his laws an statutes he confirms the new covenant which he promised...saying I will write my laws in their hearts and they will know me from the least to the greatest.....

and as I said before these things seem to be hidden from the wise and prudent.
because I have found so very few who recognize this covenant as it is presented in the law..
of course Jesus said there be few that find it..
sorry to have been so long in response ...

[Confused]

well you see there you go .....how could you ever expect to know since you are not a believer...

I am a believer. I'm not a literalist.
But you knew that, yet you still presume to have some priveleged status based on your magical personal version of Christianity.

but for me it was easy to believe

Kindly define belief.

as I began to read the new Testament the first time...

Yeah, I read it too. I also studied it in college and in seminary. It didn't make me a literalist.

i saw the example or rather it was revealed to me as I read it for the first time as an adult..it made perfect sense to me Jesus being who he say he is or not....

I'm glad it is meaningful for you, seriously. It is for me too. But all you've got, as far as literal historicity goes, is a personal interpreatation and tired binary arguments that you call sense and I call psychological projection, weak logic, and magical thinking. Where does that leave us?

you make me feel honored

I'd rather make you feel humble and self-doubting.

well there you go your last statement reveals you true faith ...it amounts to nothing..what believer would want another to doubt?

You know nothing of my true faith, and I think it amounts to something.
I was taught that doubt is essential to faith, otherwise it is smug self love, the wrong kind of simplicity, and possiblly a door to idolatry. Faithful doubt goes back to at least Augustine. So theologians, spiritual directors, and seminary faculty would, to answer your question. Especially when one's faith seems so based in magic and idiosyncratic interpretations of experience, unchecked by community.
I suggest you learn what you are talking about before you presume to assess my faith.

all of my experiences with Jesus are textbook , yet you went to college and seminary and did not find it to be so..that also defines your belief, as if you could trick God who knows you heart before you ever had one..

I truly cannot find even a shred of logic or sense in that to even reply to.
You're just preaching...I think. Please, I listen to well known, published, and credentialed people, so save your breath. I'm here to discuss and debate, not hear your rants about spirit, water, and bellies.

I have the Holy Spirit for my teacher....Jesus said he would do it..ye we have so many who had o go to school to find out What?

You shock easily. I leave to your teacher then. Funny, it's the same as mine though. Hmm...

I want you to know

Is that debate, or preaching?

Jesus is real...

Define Jesus. Kindly use the best scholarly methods of bibical exegesis and theology.
Define is. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Define real. Kindly refer to the best of epistemology and ontology.
Once we define terms, we can talk.
Otherwise you have probably made an analytically empty/meaningless assertion/utterance.

keep on looking..

No need. I found. And I thank heaven it isn't what you think.

Jesus is the son of God my Father in heaven, he is God in flesh; before that, he was God's Word but became flesh or substance made in the image of God the Father....this substance we could touch with our hands , had blood which was shed for our sins, which are behavior's which are opposed to the rule of God's own will. Jesus Christ died on a Cross, but rose the third day from the dead and ascended into heaven and is sat down at the right hand of God, my Father in heaven, expecting till all his enemies be made his footstool, according to the scriptures..

as I said before I received this Holy Spirit and that's how I know..that the gospel is true...it is the only way one can know for sure that Christ is risen from the dead..
reason can never satisfy God.. he chose to make the playing field even for all..
by confirming his word to each individual ..the scriptures declare this repeatedly; this is why Jesus demanded of his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem till they be endued with power..,, this power is defined as the Holy Spirit baptism ; which is separate from water baptism..

Any questions that I have ever had have always been answered by the Holy Spirit..as I recall , I never verbalized but meditated and wondered.. The holy Spirit would answer me with a scripture or promise or commandment....

he even shows me in the bible that this is the way Written in Jeremiah 31:31-34..and then also Isaiah 28:10 saying line upon line and precept upon precept..
so by writing in my his laws an statutes he confirms the new covenant which he promised...saying I will write my laws in their hearts and they will know me from the least to the greatest.....

and as I said before these things seem to be hidden from the wise and prudent.
because I have found so very few who recognize this covenant as it is presented in the law..
of course Jesus said there be few that find it..
sorry to have been so long in response ...

Moderator Warning


At the risk of redundancy, I will repeat what Jester has already warned you about:

Arguments that work only for those who fit one's idea of a believer are not arguments, they are preaching.
As this is a debate site, we do expect that members support their statements with logic and/or evidence.

Should you consider this line of responses, a final warning will be issued at which point you will be moved to probation followed by banishment. Please try to debate rather than preach.
Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.