Trinitarianism

[Williams]

Isn't trinitarianism a form of polytheism? How is the doctrine connected to Judaism and early Christianity? I just don't see evidence for it in scripture. Can anyone help? Maybe we can end up discussing it more in-depth in the debate forum.

[nygreenguy]

1.) There is only one true God.
2.) Scripture uses a plural noun (Elohim) to specifically describe the one true God.
3.) God’s nature is expressed as three distinct personages in Scripture: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
4.) Therefore the Godhead is a “trinity.�

Elohim is a singular noun.

Elohim (�ֱלהִי�) is a grammatically singular word for God in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with plural verbs elohim is usually plural, "gods".[1]

It is generally thought that Elohim is a formation from eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (�ֱל, ʾēl [2]). It is usually translated as "God" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".[3]

The singular forms eloah (�לוה) and el (�ֱל) are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim.[4]

The notion of divinity underwent radical changes throughout the period of early Israelite identity. The ambiguity of the term Elohim is the result of such changes, cast in terms of "vertical translatability" by Smith (2008); i.e. the re-interpretation of the gods of the earliest recalled period as the national god of the monolatrism as it emerged in the 7th to 6th century BC in the Kingdom of Judah and during the Babylonian captivity, and further in terms of monotheism by the emergence of Rabbinical Judaism in the 2nd century AD.[5]

In Hebrew the ending -im, mainly indicates a masculine plural. However with Elohim the construction is grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural elohim (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

[tomcat3443]

Isn't trinitarianism a form of polytheism? How is the doctrine connected to Judaism and early Christianity? I just don't see evidence for it in scripture. Can anyone help? Maybe we can end up discussing it more in-depth in the debate forum.

A person who is really seeking to know the truth about God is not going to search the Bible hoping to find a text that he can construe as fitting what he already believes. He wants to know what God’s Word itself says. He may find some texts that he feels can be read in more than one way, but when these are compared with other Biblical statements on the same subject their meaning will become clear. It should be noted that most of the texts used as “proof� of the Trinity actually mention only two persons, not three; so even if the Trinitarian explanation of the texts were correct, these would not prove that the Bible teaches the Trinity. At Genesis 1:1 the title “God� is translated from ’Elo·him′, which is plural in Hebrew. Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, “The LORD our God [from ’Elo·him′] is one LORD.�

The plural form of the noun here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead. Elohim means gods, not persons. So even if this was true,which it isn't,it would mean you worship more than one god. In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ’elo·him′ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god. At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the “lord� (’adho·neh′, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used ho The·os′ (God, singular) as the equivalent of ’Elo·him′. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho The·os′ is similarly used.

At Deuteronomy 6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.� ( Or Yahweh ) The nation of Israel, to whom that was stated, did not believe in the Trinity. The Babylonians and the Egyptians worshiped triads of gods, but it was made clear to Israel that Jehovah( Yahweh) is different.

[tomcat3443]

Isn't trinitarianism a form of polytheism? How is the doctrine connected to Judaism and early Christianity? I just don't see evidence for it in scripture. Can anyone help? Maybe we can end up discussing it more in-depth in the debate forum.

YES ! Anyone who is a trinitarianism worships more than one God. Which is polytheism. Simply put, Judaism is the religion of a people. There,a convert becomes part of the Jewish people as well as the Jewish religion. It is a monotheistic religion in the strictest sense and holds that God intervenes in human history,especially in relation to the Jews. Jewish worship involves serveral annual festivals and various customs. Although there are no creeds or dogmas accecpted by all Jews, the confession of the oneness of God as expressed in the Shema, a prayer based on Deuteronomy 6:4 froms a central part of synagogue worship: " Hear O Israel; The Lord our God is; The Lord is One." This belief in one God was passed on to Christianity and Islam. According to Dr. J.H. Hertz, a rabbi: " This sublime pronouncement of absolute monotheism was a declaration of war against all polytheism. In the same way, the Shema excludes the trinity of the Christian creed as a violation of the Unity of God." You will not find any scriptures in the Bible that supports the trinity. There are those who will show you some scriptures and twist them with philosophy, but its easy to see it makes no sense.

[Valarian]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not biblical. The trinity is a doctrine that was established in the 2nd Century and was first given written form by Tertullian in his statement of the trinity: three beings (hypostases) in one substance (homoousios). The trinity is not consistent with Jewish belief, that of one God, and inconsistent with Jesus' own belief. Paul, also, did not write of a trinity. The early Christians in Jerusalem did not believe in a trinity. The first hints of a Trinitarian doctrine being formed are at the end of the 1st Century / beginning of the 2nd Century, as there are some possible hints in John. However, even that gospel is not Trinitarian in its writing.

The bible does not teach the concept of a triune God. The bible teaches that God is God, Jesus is the potential messiah who will bring about God's kingdom, God's power on Earth (the Holy Spirit) is within us for the asking.

Perhaps the most heavily used verses in support of the Trinity are John 1:1 and John 10:30.

John 1:1 has translated Logos as "Word" since Jerome's Latin Vulgate's use of "Verbum". However, this does not accurately translate the Greek. Logos is a complex construct in English giving the idea of: reason, meaning, dialogue. So, John 1:1 can as easily be translated as "In the beginning was reason", or "In the beginning was meaning". The attributing of a person to the "Word" is as bad as the Gnostics attributing a person to the "Wisdom" (Sophia) of God. Jesus is being described as God-sent, but not God. God's purpose (the establishment of God's kingdom) made flesh, i.e. the coming of the messiah.

In John 10:30 it states: I and my Father are one. However, this phrasing could also mean “one� as in “of one mind�. In the Bible, Jesus also states that he and his disciples are “one� and that all nations will become “one�. Does this mean that Jesus and his disciples are one essence? Of course not. Is everything one essence? Well, perhaps – if one is inclined toward pantheism.

Another favourite is the "I am" in John 8. Jesus was not claiming to be God, he was claiming to be the messiah (the one sent by God) who Abraham foresaw the coming of.

There are many Biblical verses supporting Unity. John 8:17-18 states that there are two witnesses: Jesus and God (who sent him). If they were the same essence, there would only be the one witness – not valid in Jewish law. Jesus himself states that there is only one God (Matthew 19:17) and that God is greater than he (John 14:28). That Jesus was anointed by God (Acts 10:38) and given power by God (Matt. 28:18) to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5) and a doer of God's will (John 6:38). Paul wrote that Jesus interceded on our behalf, as an intermediary not as a direct appeal (1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 16:27, Romans 7:25). In Hebrews, Jesus is described as being our High Priest.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus asks why they call him good when there is but one who is good. The implication in this statement, especially when going on to the commandments in the next verse, is the one is God. Jesus is differentiating himself from God, as he does in many other verses (e.g. John 5:30, John 7:16-18, John 14:10, Mark 13:32). Jesus states that God works through him and that he does God's works. He doesn't state that he is God or equal to God.

In short, the Jewish Shema stands:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one