JBlack wrote:
Recently, I was at my local McDonald's, and there was a Christian group there handing out pamphlets and praying for people. A man walks up to me and asks me if I know where I'm going when I die. I was having a long day and I wanted to just ignore him or tell him to piss off, but I've been raised to be respectful so I talk to him. I'm agnostic so I tell him "No, I don't know, and I don't think you do either."
He then talks (on and on) about God and Jesus, and about heaven and hell. He tells me in hell there's going to be a physical fire.
He also tells me that the human body consists of 4 parts. The physical, the mental, the emotional and the spiritual. He said when we die, it's only our physical body that dies. Our physical returns to dust and the rest lives on.
But wait... if Hell has a physical fire, and after death you no longer have a physical body, then how can hell hurt you?
He was confused by my question so I broke it down further for him.
When I was a kid, I burnt my arm on the iron. It hurt and so I cried. However, I didn't cry because my emotions were hurt, or because my spirit was hurt... I cried because my
physical body was hurt. Now, when we die, we no longer have physical bodies. So how can a
physical fire hurt you if you no longer have a
physical body? How can you experience physical pain with no physical body?
He couldn't answer the question. He tried to, but failed miserably. He gave a response, but the response failed to answer the question.
And so my question is:
1. Do Christians believe that hell contains a physical fire? or just some like the man I met at McDonald's?
2. If hell contains a physical fire, how does that fire hurt people who no longer have physical bodies?
3. Is God going to give the hellbound their physical bodies back, just so they can be tortured in a physical fire? (Why not just leave them dead??)
Hi, great job. I think you handled that question very well if I say so myself. My sister and I are both Christians but she has different beliefs than I do. So one day she told me I was going to hell because I didn't believe in the trinity. I said that's ok because i don't believe in hell either. This is what I believe :Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?
Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.� (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,� AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,� KJ, Kx; “hell,� Dy; “the world of the dead,� TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.� (*“Thoughts,� KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,� JB; “plans,� RS, TEV.)
Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.� (*“Soul,� KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,� JB; “the person,� TEV.)
“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.�—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.
“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’�—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.
What sort of people go to the Bible hell?
Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?
Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.� (*“Hell,� 9:18 in Dy; “death,� TEV; “the place of death,� Kx; “Sheol,� AS, RS, NE, JB, .)
Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?
Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?� (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.�—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,� KJ; “the world of the dead,� TEV; “Sheol,� AS, RS, NE, JB, .)
Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.� (The fact that God did not “leave� Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,� Dy; “death,� NE; “the place of death,� Kx; “the world of the dead,� TEV; “Hades,� AS, RS, JB, .)
Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?
Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.� (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,� Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,� TEV; “Hades,� NE, AS, RS, JB, .)
Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?
“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.�—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,� “the grave,� and “the pit�; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell� and “grave�; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.� (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades� and also renders it as “hell� and “the world of the dead.� But besides rendering “hell� from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell� and as “the underworld.� It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,� as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.
Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,� Int; Greek, ko′la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.� (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off� instead of “punishment.� A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.�)
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.� (*“Eternal ruin,� NAB, NE; “lost eternally,� JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,� Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,� Dy.)
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.� (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed�; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou′] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.� “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.�
What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image� are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.� This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.� (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image� will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.� The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,� what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone� means “the second death.� So the Devil’s being “tormented� there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment� (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, .
What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?
Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge′en·nan tou py·ros′ as “hell fire� (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell� (NE), “fiery pit� (AT), and “fires of Gehenna� (NAB).
Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body� into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.
At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.� What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul� separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.�
What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?
Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.�
After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.�
Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?
Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.� (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)
Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.� (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!
By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.� If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man� represented the Pharisees. (See Lu 16 verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.� (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer�), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.�—John 8:44.
I know this was a lot to take in and I don't know if you even read it. But i wanted you to know that you are right not believing in hell fire. I know you are an agnostic,but like I tell everyone,if your happy in what you believe that's what counts. Have a great day.
