Why My Religion or Nonreligion?

[JoeyKnothead]

Why did you choose or accept your religious position over others?

[BwhoUR]

[quote="GentleDove"] ...humanistic Catholic/public school system. [quote]

What is that? Never heard of it.

Humanists (or Atheists like me) try to make the world around them better, we don't wait for god to do it for us. Most of our problems are created by us and we need to try to fix them ourselves, even the bible doesn't give hope of that, it only gives you the end of the world to look forward to. Logic, our money/time resources and ability are where we start. Would your god object if we did this, what if our hearts were in the right place? I don't think so, but 'giving it all up to him' solves nothing in this one short life we are given.

Also, you spoke of trying to be perfect and how unhappy that made you, I fear that following the bible may make you even more unhappy, it takes a lot of energy to fight for god with all of the bibles contradictions, it's savage history, it's vagueness as to whether it is literal or not and what it really means if it's not.

If you read some of the things others here have said, some were so enraptured that they prayed constantly, it consumed their lives, it seems maddening to me and pointless.

When I had a child I thought, "No way is my beautiful perfect innocent little girl a sinner. No way." I think that of all children. No way.

[GentleDove]

I have to take exception to one statement here:

Humanism to me means the belief that man is the measure of all things; that man, not God, is his own lawgiver and judge.

Now that seems to me to be fair and accurate; and wise. It's also very close to the approach of modern Judaism. The ethics of Judaism are not moral because they came from God, but because wise humans have examined and affirmed, and sometimes revised, them through debate and discussion over centuries. That was the job we were given, in Jewish belief; to use our brains and figure things out for ourselves, with the assistance, but not the veto, of the tradition. We are not to stop thinking and worship a book.

I'm not sure if you were talking about Christianity when you said "worship a book." Just for clarity's sake, I worship the triune God of the Bible, not the Bible itself.

Further, the dignity, freedom and life of the individual human being IS the highest value in Judaism. Period, full stop.
So: so far, so good. BUT, this does not logically follow:

That is, he lives autonomously, for self.

No. Simply, no. Rationality and concern for humanity and human values does not equal selfishness or self-centeredness. Humanism - and modern Judaism - are OTHER-oriented, not self-oriented. This is as much a stereotype of atheism/humanism as

A case could be made that fundamentalist Christianity is the most profoundly self-centered religion on the planet, next to self-worship itself; when the central concern is believing the right things in order to go to Heaven, and that trumps all other concerns - like, say, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless and freeing the oppressed - what else can it be called but selfish?

I don't think I said that rationality and concern for humanity and human values is the same as selfishness, only when it's viewed as the sine qua non or the highest value, worshipped above God, as an idol.

I also don't believe the right things in order to go to heaven. I said God changed my heart, and that's why I'm a Christian. God granted me heaven and now I do right things (which He defines) in gratitude to Him because I live for Him (and by Him).

Also, thanks to God, I am able to both go to heaven and feed the hungry and clothe the naked--I don't have to pick either heaven or helping people.

As Deuteronomy and Leviticus say, love God and love your neighbor. In Matthew and Mark's gospels Jesus Christ affirms the OT and tells us loving God is the first greatest commandment, and the second greatest is to love your neighbor as yourself.

[GentleDove]

How do you know that it was God who made the change?

The Bible says believers are made by God through the hearing of the Word and the work of the Holy Spirit. I heard the Word, and my heart was changed, just as the Bible said. After years of failed perfectionism, I was free because of Christ, just as the Bible said. God said it in the Bible and then He proved it to me in my inner experience and my outward life.

You expected to have a change of heart and you got one. You then attribute it to this god in whom you trusted to make this change.

Respectfully, no, it was as I said; I did not expect to have a change of heart, yet I was given a change of heart.

For the record, I was neither raised in nor spent any time in a community of believers; I was raised by alcoholic humanists who I love dearly (my parents) and the humanistic Catholic/public school system. One day when I was in my late-twenties, I found a Bible by the dumpster, and I started reading it alone in my apartment. I felt no peer pressure at all to become a Christian; rather the contrary, if anything.

You found your secular life lacking in meaning and fulfillment. You got a Bible along with the notion that it does provide meaning and fulfillment to so many people.

The world ("secular life") also promises fulfillment, but it does not deliver. God does fulfill His promises, and I'm just affirming that.

However, just for clarity, I am not urging anyone to "believe in God and have your best, most fulfilling life now." Even the fulfillment is on God's terms and not human terms. And, as I have stated, no one can "choose" for without Him changing his heart.

Is there something wrong with humanism? We don't all live for ourselves. In fact, how do you know that you would be selfish without a belief in god?

Humanism to me means the belief that man is the measure of all things; that man, not God, is his own lawgiver and judge. That is, he lives autonomously, for self.

Yes, humanity makes its own laws, within the framework of the natural laws. To pretend otherwise is folly. None of us live autonomously. Nor do we live collectively autonomously. We are a part of the natural environment part of the ecosystem of this planet. According to Christian theology, the animals and plants were given to us by a god for our benefit. According to humanism we are an integral part of the planetary ecosystem. Which point of view appears to express that humanity is autonomous?

By "autonomous" I didn't mean self-centered in the way you mean here. I don't feel that God owes me animals and plants and other blessings of creation; I'm just grateful. The reason I'm grateful is that I am now aware that the universe does not operate on my terms. I'm saying this is a theonomous universe, not an autonomous universe.

It is a mindset and soul-condition that informs all he does and thinks. He is a slave to it, and can think no other way but to reject the God of the Bible.

The humanist mindset is informed by the principle of free inquiry. Humanism recognizes that reliable knowledge of the world and ourselves arises through a continuing process, of observation, evaluation and revision.

Free inquiry. Reliable knowledge.

The revealed religions, on the other hand, are slaves to whichever text they have chosen to regard as divine revelation. They are allowed to think and reason, but only within the bounds imposed by their revelation.

I kind of have to agree with you here...

Many humanists try to "save" society or individuals, and believe they are doing good things and are very generous and charitable, but it is all by their own measure.

You are applying Christian theological terms to what we do, and perhaps giving a wrong impression. We generally do not try to save or redeem society or individuals. We merely attempt to improve things. If things can be changed so that the subsequent state provides more happiness than the previous state, then it is an improvement.

Yes, salvation is a Christian theological term for what I think humanists are trying to achieve by their own efforts, on their own terms, without God.

Of course it is by our own measure, what other measure do we have? God's? What reliable evidence do we have of what any of the gods might think?

If you reject God, I can't think of any other measure you would use.

And (since you asked) I think (now) it is a wrong view of self and a wrong view of God.

Thank you for your opinion.

I would be selfish without God because that is how I always was, despite all my best efforts, before He made me love Him. Also, I wanted to believe that man could come up with and execute the solutions for problems, even death, eventually. That was why I liked evolution and the new-agey, spiritual-evolution ideas.

No wonder you found yourself disillusioned. If solutions are to be found to humanity's problems, than those solutions must lie in human thought and action rather than divine intervention. God is not going to deliver.

Of course, I think the other way around: Humanism doesn't deliver on its proponents' promises; but God does deliver on His promises.

However, as the Bible says, the truth is that selfishness flows out of the heart of individuals, and we (humans) are incapable of choosing God, apart from His grace.

That's hardly fair is it? God has granted you his grace to choose him yet God must have also withheld his grace from those who do not choose him.

It's not fair according to humans, but it is fair according to God.

[GentleDove]

...humanistic Catholic/public school system.

What is that? Never heard of it.

LOL - I was trying to say that I attended both Catholic school and public school, and that both were humanist.

Humanists (or Atheists like me) try to make the world around them better, we don't wait for god to do it for us. Most of our problems are created by us and we need to try to fix them ourselves, even the bible doesn't give hope of that, it only gives you the end of the world to look forward to.

There are even Christians who believe that, but I don't see that the Bible only gives Christians the end of the world to look forward to.

Logic, our money/time resources and ability are where we start. Would your god object if we did this, what if our hearts were in the right place? I don't think so, but 'giving it all up to him' solves nothing in this one short life we are given.

He does object to us thinking we know better than He does about how to solve our problems; this is a symptom of our hearts not being in the right place.

However, I didn't mean to give the impression that God does not expect us to actively obey Him by loving other people. God often uses His obedient servants to solve problems and help people.

Also, you spoke of trying to be perfect and how unhappy that made you, I fear that following the bible may make you even more unhappy, it takes a lot of energy to fight for god with all of the bibles contradictions, it's savage history, it's vagueness as to whether it is literal or not and what it really means if it's not.

The fight you describe is not the battle I fight.

If you read some of the things others here have said, some were so enraptured that they prayed constantly, it consumed their lives, it seems maddening to me and pointless.

We can do other stuff while we pray; it doesn't take that much time. And it's definitely not pointless to us, but I can certainly see why it would seem so to an atheist.

When I had a child I thought, "No way is my beautiful perfect innocent little girl a sinner. No way." I think that of all children. No way.

Did you realize she was a sinner later? Or do you still think her and other children to be "perfect"? Do you really believe that no child has ever lied, never thought of herself above others, never wanted something she didn't have, etc.?

Once I realized God had a solution for sin, it didn't seem so unfaceable. I was able to "see" it in myself and others and still love sinners. It is a wonderful thing to realize that God's love for His people is not dependent upon us being perfect in and of ourselves.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[JoeyKnothead]

Just wanted to show I was still interested in the thread. I don't wish to debate anyone's posts here, but I am curious about why folks hold their positions.

Sorry if this is considered spam.

[McCulloch]

The world ("secular life") also promises fulfillment, but it does not deliver. God does fulfill His promises, and I'm just affirming that.

What promises has God fulfilled?

By "autonomous" I didn't mean self-centered in the way you mean here. I don't feel that God owes me animals and plants and other blessings of creation; I'm just grateful. The reason I'm grateful is that I am now aware that the universe does not operate on my terms. I'm saying this is a theonomous universe, not an autonomous universe.

Thank you for that clarification. Of course I disagree, but I will not debate that just now.

If you reject God, I can't think of any other measure you would

Of course if you accept God, you still have the difficulty of determining which of the many claimants represent valid communication of His standards. I'll bet you use human measures, reasoning and standards to figure that out.

It's not fair according to humans, but it is fair according to God.

That's right. "God is fair and just" the theists claim. But not fair and just in any sense that we understand those words. They must be mystically and religiously redefined. To me that renders the claim that God is fair and just into meaninglessness.

[BwhoUR]

There are even Christians who believe that, but I don't see that the Bible only gives Christians the end of the world to look forward to.
He does object to us thinking we know better than He does about how to solve our problems; this is a symptom of our hearts not being in the right place.

However, I didn't mean to give the impression that God does not expect us to actively obey Him by loving other people. God often uses His obedient servants to solve problems and help people.
Did you realize she was a sinner later? Or do you still think her and other children to be "perfect"? Do you really believe that no child has ever lied, never thought of herself above others, never wanted something she didn't have, etc.?

I'm terrible at breaking up quotes, sorry, so I just combined the ones that I want to focus on.

What do you think that god wants you to do in this life other that worship him, talk about him and obey him? Please use scripture or any other evidence of your position please, so that I can understand your answer clearly.

How does god use his obedient servants to solve problems and what problems have they solved? Again, please use evidence so that I can evaluate it clearly.

Lastly, about sinners, of course people and children make mistakes, of course they make bad choices, that's how we learn and how we grow. The only person in history (according to the bible) who was without sin was the Virgin Mary and we don't know anything about how she functioned in her childhood and adult life (wouldn't that have been nice to know). "Adam and Eve" could never have gone through eternity without making a mistake, it is an absolute. Here's the thing that atheists cannot reconcile: If we will always make mistakes, and that is one way that we learn about life, why is that a sin, why is it evil, why is it wrong? Also, why is the brutal death of Jesus the only way to reconcile those alleged 'sins'?

Is the death of jesus a loving act? What kind of god decides "I know, I'll kill my child" that should prove to the earthlings that I love them.
Is the death of jesus payment for our sins? If so, payment to who? "Payment to me (god) by killing my own child sounds logical sounds loving, sounds right?
Or was it god's gift to us, sacrifice in reverse? Why the ultimate sacrifice to and for his SUBJECTS? Should we be impressed, grateful, satisfied, or just fearful? Who are we to require sacrifice for anything, especially human sacrifice.

[GentleDove]

The world ("secular life") also promises fulfillment, but it does not deliver. God does fulfill His promises, and I'm just affirming that.

What promises has God fulfilled?

He destroyed all but 8 people in a worldwide flood and has not flooded the earth again since then, brought His people out of Egypt, gave them land in Canaan, put David on the throne of Israel, gave Solomon wisdom, brought John the Baptist as a forerunner to prepare the way for Christ Jesus, brought forth the Seed of the woman to save His people from their sins, brought Judas Iscariot to destruction (Josh. 21:45), said he would rise from the dead and then He did.

If you reject God, I can't think of any other measure you would

Of course if you accept God, you still have the difficulty of determining which of the many claimants represent valid communication of His standards. I'll bet you use human measures, reasoning and standards to figure that out.

God gave me reason to use, but He also changed my mind, so that I view His reason as superior to mine. So, presuppositionally, I don't view the Bible as on the same level as competing claimants. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, not the end result of autonomous wisdom.

It's not fair according to humans, but it is fair according to God.

That's right. "God is fair and just" the theists claim. But not fair and just in any sense that we understand those words. They must be mystically and religiously redefined. To me that renders the claim that God is fair and just into meaninglessness.

God's fairness and justice is true fairness and justice; He judges impartially. A sinful human's view of justice is corrupted and self-centered; we judge partially (wrongly in our own favor). We think we deserve mercy, even though we don't. We think mercy and justice are the same thing, but they are not. We think the just thing for God to do is to show us mercy, especially if someone else is shown mercy. But someone else being shown mercy does not mean that the person condemned to hell does not deserve hell. It means the person saved does not deserve to be saved. Because God's running the show and sets the terms of eternal salvation and eternal damnation and everything in between. We judging ourselves of definitely not deserving of hell and refusing mercy because God isn't "fair" on one's own terms, and we don't like the way He goes about being merciful is what is meaningless in a universe wherein God is the judge.

[FinalEnigma]

You are running into a couple issues that frequently come up that I would like to point out.

First, God gave you reason, and people use this reason to understand things. Yet their understanding is so corrupt and horrible that we would call something blatantly and horrible evil, which is actually something good(why would he give us such useless reason?). Yet your reason and faculties are sufficient to rely on to determine that you follow the correct God, and that it really is God, and that you aren't insane(I don't mean that you actually are, just that if your own reason cannot be trusted at all, then you cannot judge that you aren't insane, because that takes reason).

second, your last paragraph boils down to God is just and fair becasue he is omnipotent and says so.
See, what we, or anybody else thinks is blatantly unfair(to condemn one person to an eternity of torture(which, sorry, is evil) and give another eternity in paradise, by other than their own worth or merit), is fair becasue he made the rules that way. So torturing someone for eternity becasue he grew up in a remote tribe in south America and never heard of you is just - becasue God decided that it is.

[GentleDove]

There are even Christians who believe that, but I don't see that the Bible only gives Christians the end of the world to look forward to.
He does object to us thinking we know better than He does about how to solve our problems; this is a symptom of our hearts not being in the right place.

However, I didn't mean to give the impression that God does not expect us to actively obey Him by loving other people. God often uses His obedient servants to solve problems and help people.
Did you realize she was a sinner later? Or do you still think her and other children to be "perfect"? Do you really believe that no child has ever lied, never thought of herself above others, never wanted something she didn't have, etc.?

I'm terrible at breaking up quotes, sorry, so I just combined the ones that I want to focus on.

What do you think that god wants you to do in this life other that worship him, talk about him and obey him? Please use scripture or any other evidence of your position please, so that I can understand your answer clearly.

That about sums it up, but "obeying Him" is quite a summary of a huge collection of thoughts, words and deeds (behaviors, works) that God expects of/ennables in His people. Love, in the Bible, is more than sentimental emotion. Love definitely includes tender emotion, but it mainly includes how we treat others.

How does god use his obedient servants to solve problems and what problems have they solved? Again, please use evidence so that I can evaluate it clearly.

It is loving people to honor them (Ex. 20:12, Lev. 19:32, 1 Sam. 2:8, 1 Sam. 2:30, Mal. 2:2, Matt. 15:4, Matt. 19:19, Lk. 14:10, Jn. 5:23, Rom. 1:21, Rom. 12:10, 1 Cor. 12:22-25, 1 Thess. 4:4-5, 1 Tim. 1:17, 1 Tim. 5:3, Heb. 5:4, Heb. 13:4, 1 Pet. 2:17, 2 Tim. 2:21, 1 Pet. 3:7, Rev. 4:11), not murder them, not cheat them, be faithful to them, not lie to them, give them food when they are hungry and water when they are thirsty, say kind things to them, not say cruel things to them, bind their wounds when they've been hurt, not take advantage when someone is vulnerable, not defraud someone, promote others' well-being, esteem others higher than ourselves, be humble, not be conceited and full of oneself, be self-sacrificing, be patient, be repentent when we've done wrong, reprove those who sin from the motivation of caring for their well-being, and forgive someone who has repented of their wrong-doing. God loves us this way, and He wants us to love Him and each other that way.

I have to be careful not to quote the whole Bible here, but there are many, many passages where God shows and tells us what obeying God means. Jesus equates obeying God with loving Him and loving our neighbor. I'm not sure how familiar with the Bible you are. If what I've written doesn't sound like what you know of the Bible, and you still want chapter and verse, I can provide that.

Lastly, about sinners, of course people and children make mistakes, of course they make bad choices, that's how we learn and how we grow.

What we call "mistakes," God calls sin. I think "sin" literally means "to miss the mark" of God's perfect and holy righteousness.

The only person in history (according to the bible) who was without sin was the Virgin Mary and we don't know anything about how she functioned in her childhood and adult life (wouldn't that have been nice to know).

The Virgin Mary was a sinner, saved by her son and her Lord God, Jesus. The only person in history who was sinless according to the Bible was Jesus Christ. I do wish the Bible said more about Mary's childhood and Jesus' childhood, too.

"Adam and Eve" could never have gone through eternity without making a mistake, it is an absolute.

God created them sinless but apparently capable of sinning, which they apparently took full advantage of. However, the record of Adam and Eve before the Fall and of Jesus Christ on earth before His death and resurrection shows us that it is possible to possess human nature and not sin.

Here's the thing that atheists cannot reconcile: If we will always make mistakes, and that is one way that we learn about life, why is that a sin, why is it evil, why is it wrong? Also, why is the brutal death of Jesus the only way to reconcile those alleged 'sins'?

God chose Jesus Christ to be the Mediator of our sin, to get rid of it for the rest of eternity after the Final Day. I believe God did it this way to show His love for His creatures and to bring glory, honor and praise to Himself, which is right and good. But I do look forward to being made and kept sinless by God one day and for eternity after then.

Is the death of jesus a loving act? What kind of god decides "I know, I'll kill my child" that should prove to the earthlings that I love them.
Is the death of jesus payment for our sins? If so, payment to who? "Payment to me (god) by killing my own child sounds logical sounds loving, sounds right?
Or was it god's gift to us, sacrifice in reverse? Why the ultimate sacrifice to and for his SUBJECTS? Should we be impressed, grateful, satisfied, or just fearful?

God and His Son are one. God Himself chose to sacrifice Himself for our sins. Jesus was not a victim, but a brave hero. It was very loving, but we think we know better what love is. I've heard people refer to cheap one-night stands as "love" and mock God's standard of love. Yes, I think we should be impressed, grateful, satisfied and afraid when we learn of Jesus' self-sacrifice. I'm not sure what you mean by "sacrifice in reverse," but maybe (hopefully) I inadvertently answered it?

Who are we to require sacrifice for anything, especially human sacrifice.

We are nothing and in no position to require anything, much less anything like human sacrifice for our own evil purposes. God condemns in Scripture any sinful man who dares to require it or thinks it will get them somewhere in God's sight. It doesn't, of course. (Deut. 12:30-32; and elsewhere)