Crucifixion

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blasf
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Crucifixion

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Post by blasf »

In absolute terms, what guarantees are there that Jesus was crucified?
And if so, why then crucifixion?
Why not another/different, less violent form of death?

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Post by The Tongue »

[McCulloch wrote]..........Which eyewitnesses would those be? I mean for the crucifixion, not the holocaust.

John the beloved disciple for one, from whose memoires the Gospel of John was compiled.

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Re: Crucifixion

Post #22

Post by The Tongue »

blasf wrote: In absolute terms, what guarantees are there that Jesus was crucified?
And if so, why then crucifixion?
Why not another/different, less violent form of death?

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.

1 Peter 3: 18-20; Being made dead in the flesh but still alive in spirit=mind, during the three days that his body lay in the bowels of the earth, He, Jesus, mentally descended through time and preached the Good News also, to the Sons of God who were disobedient in the days when Noah was building the Ark

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Re: Crucifixion

Post #23

Post by Choir Loft »

blasf wrote: In absolute terms, what guarantees are there that Jesus was crucified?
And if so, why then crucifixion?
Why not another/different, less violent form of death?
What kind of absolute terms do you require?

More than a dozen secular historical references exist which record that Jesus walked and talked as a miracle worker or 'magician' by some accounts. It is further recorded that Jesus was executed publicly and that he had been reported to have risen from the dead.

The Bible records these events in detail, especially those of the day and hours of Jesus death. Scriptures record extreme weather events as well as an earthquake at that moment. Parts of the great Temple in Jerusalem were damaged and the veil that hung in the doorway between the Holy of Holies and its outer section split in half. Witnesses also said that many dead people rose out of their graves and walked through the city.

Something very powerful and very very strange happened that day - even if you don't believe that Jesus is God. And considering what the man said and did before and after the fact - why wouldn't you accept it?

Even more, the seismic and sudden extreme weather conditions are also recorded in secular history - conditions that were observed throughout the Empire!!!

Much more happened on the day Jesus' died on the cross. It wasn't just the obscure death of an innocent man in a remote part of the planet.

* * *
There are some who teach that Jesus and/or His disciples paid someone to take Jesus place on the cross.

Let's get real here.

Have you seen any depictions of what happens to a man hanging on a cross? In Jesus time, people didn't need videos, photographs, paintings or actors to describe it. They saw it all the time - up close and personal. All the blood and the humiliation and the pain and the screaming - UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

What man in his right mind (or even a cracked one) would be so stupid as to agree to take someone's place on the cross?

Go back and reconsider the Biblical account of the events preceding the crucifixion.

Jesus was stealing the thunder of the priests religion. Thousands of people were coming to Christ. If they weren't impressed by His miracles, they were persuaded by His words - that the Kingdom of God had come among them. And the priests became very very jealous - jealous to a murderous frenzy.

Has anything really changed in the hearts of man? Really? It was all about political expediency then and now. A corrupt disciple of Jesus was bribed to identify Him and He was arrested.

Those that hated Jesus most were certain they had their hands on the neck of the right man - and when they broke all their own legal laws for crime and punishment they beat Him and executed Him publicly - in plain sight of everyone.

There is not so much as a hint in any religious or secular record of the times that anybody except Jesus died on the cross that day. The accusation that someone else did so is patently absurd. The notion that every single historical account was wrong is likewise ridiculous.

If not true, where are accounts to the contrary?

It isn't truth that is in question today, it's the hypocrisy of the search.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
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Post #24

Post by LilytheTheologian »

This is what Father Vincent Serpa, O.P. wrote to me when I asked him why Jesus had to suffer so:

"Dear friend,

This is a good question because it brings us to the very heart of what Christianity is all about. From a purely human standpoint, your question sounds right on. But we are not dealing with a purely human reality here; we are dealing with God. What you are really asking is: if God is love, as we understand love, then why would He allow His Son to suffer such agony? The key here is “as we understand it.�

As so often I say here, God is not merely a bigger version of us. He is God, almighty and incomprehensible to us. That He would take on flesh and become one of His creatures for the sake of His creatures is beyond our ability to fathom. The very thing that seems to confound you is the very thing that shows us how His love is so far beyond our ability to fully comprehend.

We have no experience of anything that is without limit. Everything we know has a limit—except God. He is unlimited and His love is unlimited. The only unlimited phenomena that we have access to is the expression of divine love that is His Passion on Good Friday. On Good Friday God told us more about Himself than at any other time. He did not force His Son to suffer. Jesus, Himself, said: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No one takes is from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. ( Jn. 10:17-18) He knows that while we can’t comprehend infinite love, we can comprehend suffering because we have some experience of it. By seeing how much almighty God was willing to suffer on our behalf, we get some inkling of how extensive His love for us must be. His suffering was human suffering, but the love that it expressed is divine. So when we pray the stations of the cross, we don’t just thank Him for suffering as He did, we say: “We adore you O Christ and we bless you; for by your holy cross, you have redeemed the world.� We adore Him because He is not just a human being, He is God."

From Fr. Vincent Serpa to me, used with his permission.

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Post #25

Post by Haven »

[color=red]LilytheTheologian[/color] wrote:
This is what Father Vincent Serpa, O.P. wrote to me when I asked him why Jesus had to suffer so:

"Dear friend,

This is a good question because it brings us to the very heart of what Christianity is all about. From a purely human standpoint, your question sounds right on. But we are not dealing with a purely human reality here; we are dealing with God. What you are really asking is: if God is love, as we understand love, then why would He allow His Son to suffer such agony? The key here is “as we understand it.�

As so often I say here, God is not merely a bigger version of us. He is God, almighty and incomprehensible to us. That He would take on flesh and become one of His creatures for the sake of His creatures is beyond our ability to fathom. The very thing that seems to confound you is the very thing that shows us how His love is so far beyond our ability to fully comprehend.

We have no experience of anything that is without limit. Everything we know has a limit—except God. He is unlimited and His love is unlimited. The only unlimited phenomena that we have access to is the expression of divine love that is His Passion on Good Friday. On Good Friday God told us more about Himself than at any other time. He did not force His Son to suffer. Jesus, Himself, said: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No one takes is from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. ( Jn. 10:17-18) He knows that while we can’t comprehend infinite love, we can comprehend suffering because we have some experience of it. By seeing how much almighty God was willing to suffer on our behalf, we get some inkling of how extensive His love for us must be. His suffering was human suffering, but the love that it expressed is divine. So when we pray the stations of the cross, we don’t just thank Him for suffering as He did, we say: “We adore you O Christ and we bless you; for by your holy cross, you have redeemed the world.� We adore Him because He is not just a human being, He is God."

From Fr. Vincent Serpa to me, used with his permission
.
Isn't this non-answer just a fallacious appeal to ignorance? He's assuming that there must be some justification, but instead of explaining what that justification is simply says "we cannot know."

If we can't know, then isn't the most rational position agnosticism about the efficacy of the crucifixion?
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Post #26

Post by OnceConvinced »

LilytheTheologian wrote: This is what Father Vincent Serpa, O.P. wrote to me when I asked him why Jesus had to suffer so:

"Dear friend,

This is a good question because it brings us to the very heart of what Christianity is all about. From a purely human standpoint, your question sounds right on. But we are not dealing with a purely human reality here; we are dealing with God. What you are really asking is: if God is love, as we understand love, then why would He allow His Son to suffer such agony? The key here is “as we understand it.�

As so often I say here, God is not merely a bigger version of us. He is God, almighty and incomprehensible to us. That He would take on flesh and become one of His creatures for the sake of His creatures is beyond our ability to fathom. The very thing that seems to confound you is the very thing that shows us how His love is so far beyond our ability to fully comprehend.
this is simply just another of those "God's ways are higher than our ways" arguments, which is pretty silly when you consider that the bible is supposed to be God's word to mankind, so if God is going to write something for mankind he's going to write it in a way that humans can easily understand. Not some way that some super code decoding ability is required, or worse "You just have to accept what it says."

If God is going to send his son to earth for whatever reason, then it needs to be done in a way that humans can grasp and understand. Not some airy fairy way that is only understandable to God. If not, there's no point. He's trying to identify with us humans isn't he? If he is then he's doing a really lousy job of it by promoting the human sacrifice. Especially his own son.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
We have no experience of anything that is without limit. Everything we know has a limit—except God. He is unlimited and His love is unlimited.
Any thing can be claimed about gods. I too could make up a fantastic god with some amazing abilities and super powers. If this god of yours was unlimited I'm sure he could find a way of cleansing sin and bringing us closer to him without the need for the brutal slaughter of his own son.
LilytheTheologian wrote: The only unlimited phenomena that we have access to is the expression of divine love that is His Passion on Good Friday. On Good Friday God told us more about Himself than at any other time. He did not force His Son to suffer. Jesus, Himself, said: “For this reason the Father loves me,...
Really? For THIS REASON? So God's love is conditional? I would never have that sort of conditional love on my child.

LilytheTheologian wrote: because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No one takes is from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. ( Jn. 10:17-18)
I still don't see how this makes it moral. An innocent man being brutally put to death for the evils of other people. This is not good news. People should have to face the consequences of their own actions and nobody else should ever take the punishment for them, even voluntarily. Would we have deemed it ok if say Adolf Hilter had been captured, put on trial for his crimes and then some other person had come along and said "Hey, execute me instead of Hitler!" Hell no! It's not right for an innocent person in any way shape or form to pay the price of the crimes of another. What a horrible thought.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
He knows that while we can’t comprehend infinite love,
Is God's love infinite? No because at some stage he is going to throw the majority of his creations into Hell and there will be no mercy. His love will end on Judgement Day.
LilytheTheologian wrote: we can comprehend suffering because we have some experience of it. By seeing how much almighty God was willing to suffer on our behalf, we get some inkling of how extensive His love for us must be.
According to many Christians we are going to be suffering for all eternity in Hell due to no being able to believe in God. Is Jesus suffering in Hell right now? And if Hell is just annihilation has Jesus been annihilated? So no Jesus never suffered as much as we are going to suffer. All he did was suffer for about a day or so and then got resurrected into Heaven. Many humans have suffered way worse than Jesus suffered.

And once again, it makes no difference how much Jesus loved us. It's still not moral for him to be punished for the sins of evil people. That is very bad news as far as I can see. Evil people getting away with their abominations and an innocent man suffering on their behalf. Even if just for a couple of days.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


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Post #27

Post by LilytheTheologian »

Haven wrote:
[color=red]LilytheTheologian[/color] wrote:
This is what Father Vincent Serpa, O.P. wrote to me when I asked him why Jesus had to suffer so:

"Dear friend,

This is a good question because it brings us to the very heart of what Christianity is all about. From a purely human standpoint, your question sounds right on. But we are not dealing with a purely human reality here; we are dealing with God. What you are really asking is: if God is love, as we understand love, then why would He allow His Son to suffer such agony? The key here is “as we understand it.�

As so often I say here, God is not merely a bigger version of us. He is God, almighty and incomprehensible to us. That He would take on flesh and become one of His creatures for the sake of His creatures is beyond our ability to fathom. The very thing that seems to confound you is the very thing that shows us how His love is so far beyond our ability to fully comprehend.

We have no experience of anything that is without limit. Everything we know has a limit—except God. He is unlimited and His love is unlimited. The only unlimited phenomena that we have access to is the expression of divine love that is His Passion on Good Friday. On Good Friday God told us more about Himself than at any other time. He did not force His Son to suffer. Jesus, Himself, said: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No one takes is from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. ( Jn. 10:17-18) He knows that while we can’t comprehend infinite love, we can comprehend suffering because we have some experience of it. By seeing how much almighty God was willing to suffer on our behalf, we get some inkling of how extensive His love for us must be. His suffering was human suffering, but the love that it expressed is divine. So when we pray the stations of the cross, we don’t just thank Him for suffering as He did, we say: “We adore you O Christ and we bless you; for by your holy cross, you have redeemed the world.� We adore Him because He is not just a human being, He is God."

From Fr. Vincent Serpa to me, used with his permission
.
Isn't this non-answer just a fallacious appeal to ignorance? He's assuming that there must be some justification, but instead of explaining what that justification is simply says "we cannot know."

If we can't know, then isn't the most rational position agnosticism about the efficacy of the crucifixion?
Yes and no. The answers given on that particular site are often simplistic, probably because the people who ask them, for the most part, are not equipped to deal with lengthy theological answers.

No because it's true, we have no concept of limitless love or limitless anything. In our mortal lives, we have no concept of eternity.

It's not the best answer, I grant you, but it's also not the worst I've encountered on that site.

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Post #28

Post by puddleglum »

One reason crucifixion was chosen that it involves shedding blood. Sin can only be atoned for by the blood of an innocent sacrifice. If Jesus has been executed in a way that didn't involve shedding blood his death would not have atoned for sin.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
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Post #29

Post by OnceConvinced »

puddleglum wrote: One reason crucifixion was chosen that it involves shedding blood. Sin can only be atoned for by the blood of an innocent sacrifice.
Why? Is there no other less barbaric way?

And how does the blood actually atone?
puddleglum wrote: If Jesus has been executed in a way that didn't involve shedding blood his death would not have atoned for sin.
If this is true then the blood must have some kind of magical properties that somehow atones for our sin. But blood is blood and there's only a certain number of types. Sin does not seem to make a difference.

Perhaps it's not the blood that atones and it's simply God that chooses to cleanse us and forgive us?

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World of Fantasy

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