Why do some people believe mormons are not christian?

[Kuan]

So, you can probably tell I'm Mormon and I'm willing to debate my religion or answer questions. The purpose of this thread though is that I have had many people tell me I'm not Christian even though I believe in Jesus. I'm wondering why that is. Thanks for any answers!

[Eph]

Just wanted to ask TheFoolForHimAboveAll how he did such a good job copy and pasting his material from an anti-mormon site, then ducking and running for the rest of the posts. What a stallion!

The real question regarding who is/is not the final authority on declaring someone Christian or non-Christian? If it is the Bible, then show me where it gives a solid definition of the word "Christian" in there. I'll help you: the definition of "Christian" is not in the Bible, however, a lot of guys like TFFHAA like to make their own definitions through their own interpretation of obscure scripture references.

I'll tell you who the final authority is on whether or not Mormons are Christians: Mormons. And, there is nothing worse than somebody who is not a Mormon telling them what they believe. If I declare myself a Christian, then who are you to telling me I am not a Christian? So, unless you have the authority to tell me otherwise or if you can find a suitable definition in the Bible, then you should defer to members for this answer.

Jeffry R. Holland, an Apostle, gave a fiery sermon on this topic a few years ago and you can listen to or read it here (The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent):

http://lds.org/conference/sessions/disp ... 75,00.html

By the way, members believe that the name of our church came from the Lord by way of revelation to his servant Joseph Smith. It is found in D&C 115:4 which says simply:

4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/115/4#4

[Eph]

By the way, there was a thread on this topic a couple years ago where I posted my case for why Mormons are Christian, so did Vanguard, I believe...

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#213073

[sleepyhead]

Hello Eph,

>>>Just wanted to ask TheFoolForHimAboveAll how he did such a good job copy and pasting his material from an anti-mormon site, then ducking and running for the rest of the posts. What a stallion! ...If I declare myself a Christian, then who are you to telling me I am not a Christian?<<<

This thread was started by mormonboy ( a mormon) who wanted to know why others didn't consider mormons christian.

>>>So, unless you have the authority to tell me otherwise or if you can find a suitable definition in the Bible, then you should defer to members for this answer. <<<

mormonboy gave several definitions for christian one of which was reliance on Jesus for salvation. While you might consider salvation and exaltation to be different, others might not and since mormons don't rely on Jesus for exaltation by the definiton given by mormonboy mormons are not christian.

>>>Jeffry R. Holland, an Apostle, gave a fiery sermon on this topic <<<

Holland isn't a member of the forum. Are you prepared to stand behind Holland's sermon.

>>>By the way, members believe that the name of our church came from the Lord by way of revelation to his servant Joseph Smith. It is found in D&C 115:4 which says simply:
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.<<<

The discussion with regards to the church name came as a result of a false claim made by Katzpur. By the way if you believe the above then do you also believe that since the name of the church began as the Chruch of Christ that the lord told Joseph to take his name off the church when JS changed it to Church of latter day saints?

[Kuan]

we do rely on Jesus Christ for salvation

[Eph]

sleepyhead said:

This thread was started by mormonboy ( a mormon) who wanted to know why others didn't consider mormons christian

Fair enough. I was just pointing out the fallacy in the argument against.

sleepyhead said:

mormonboy gave several definitions for christian one of which was reliance on Jesus for salvation. While you might consider salvation and exaltation to be different, others might not and since mormons don't rely on Jesus for exaltation by the definiton given by mormonboy mormons are not christian.

It is a matter of syntax and context. It is no surprise that we believe in similar fashion what other Christians about Christ. However, due to our belief in modern day revelation and prophets, we believe that much more has been revealed about Christ as our Savior and Redeemer. For this reason, I will correct you, that despite our elevated view and definition of "exaltation" which requires the participation of husband and wife, it still relies wholly on the merits of Jesus Christ to get us there. To prove this point, the Doctrine and Covenants specifically states:

"For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father."

Note that it is Christ himself who seals the promise of exaltation, not ourselves. We strive to live the commandments as taught in the scriptures, but it is solely by the Grace of God that we gain eternal life and exaltation, by our own definition.

sleepyhead said:

Holland isn't a member of the forum. Are you prepared to stand behind Holland's sermon.

Holland isn't a member of this forum, but he is "authorized" by the church to teach church doctrine and state our beliefs. Since I am also a member and study our teachings, I know that he has accurately portrayed our beliefs.

sleepyhead said:

By the way if you believe the above then do you also believe that since the name of the church began as the Chruch of Christ that the lord told Joseph to take his name off the church when JS changed it to Church of latter day saints?

What matters to me is what we have in our scriptures - and that is THE revelation that we have canonized and follow today, same as in 1838. The revelations he received were in many cases progressive - meaning they came over time, however, the final stamp and declaration came in the 1838 revelation which is clear and definitive.

[Goat]

we do rely on Jesus Christ for salvation

However, there are a number of other beliefs that are at odds with the rest of Christian beliefs, such as


We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient...
LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 1853, page 132


and


How many earths are there? ...they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through... Sin is upon every earth that ever was created. ...consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter...
LDS Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1870, Vol. 14, p 71


And much much more. These beliefs are at odds enough with the rest of Christian belief that I can see why many say that Mormons are not Christian. They might bear the same relationship to Christianity as the Christian religion does to Judaism.. having the same base, but going into totally different directions.

I am not Christian, so it is not up to me to decide who is Christian and who is not. I note that many Baptists claim Catholics are not Christian, even though Catholics far out number those Baptists, and have a much longer and richer religious tradition.

Many Christians would consider the statements above to make Mormons out to be polytheistic.

It's not my call, but I can see the point of the other Christians who say that they are not Christian. It all depends on how you want to define "True Christian".

[Kuan]

we do rely on Jesus Christ for salvation

However, there are a number of other beliefs that are at odds with the rest of Christian beliefs, such as


We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient...
LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 1853, page 132


and


How many earths are there? ...they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through... Sin is upon every earth that ever was created. ...consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter...
LDS Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1870, Vol. 14, p 71


And much much more. These beliefs are at odds enough with the rest of Christian belief that I can see why many say that Mormons are not Christian. They might bear the same relationship to Christianity as the Christian religion does to Judaism.. having the same base, but going into totally different directions.

I am not Christian, so it is not up to me to decide who is Christian and who is not. I note that many Baptists claim Catholics are not Christian, even though Catholics far out number those Baptists, and have a much longer and richer religious tradition.

Many Christians would consider the statements above to make Mormons out to be polytheistic.

It's not my call, but I can see the point of the other Christians who say that they are not Christian. It all depends on how you want to define "True Christian".

Well those sources I have never heard of in my life so I cant be honest if those are correct or not. I will stick with our standard works.

Alma 9:28 Therefore, prepare ye the way of the Lord, for the time is at hand that all men shall reap a reward of their works, according to that which they have been—if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/9/28#28

[Eph]

Goat wrote:

However, there are a number of other beliefs that are at odds with the rest of Christian beliefs, such as

If all "Christians" had the same doctrine, there would be no denominations.

There is a growing trend toward "non-denominational" Christian where churches don't really make authoritative statements on doctrine, kind of like a diet drink - tastes good initially, but leaves a lot to be desired on the back end (a lot of unanswered questions).

Many of the "core" doctrines between Mormons and those of other Christian denominations are the same, but many Mormon doctrines are different because of our belief in an ancient Apostacy away from the immediate teachings of Christ and his Apostles and the need for a Restoration. Most of the protestant reformers, recognized the need for modern authority and revelation without making themselves out to be prophets - so, these great men protested (some sacrificed their very life) based on obvious violations of the scriptures - many churches were formed around their ideas.

In contrast, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet with both the authority and revelation needed to "restore" teachings, principals and priesthood lost centuries earlier. We believe that he did so in miraculous fashion. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and organization of the church are amazing works for a non-educated farm boy from upstate New York.

So, IMHO, if members of other churches don't agree with everything that we believe, I respect that and I don't lose any sleep over it. Mormons are different and proud of their beliefs - many which attempt to answer difficult doctrinal questions.

[Katzpur]

mormonboy gave several definitions for christian one of which was reliance on Jesus for salvation. While you might consider salvation and exaltation to be different, others might not and since mormons don't rely on Jesus for exaltation by the definiton given by mormonboy mormons are not christian.

Talk about twisting a comment to mean something other than the original poster meant! Nobody who has ever lived could hope to be exalted without Jesus Christ. Obviously we do rely on Jesus Christ for exaltation. Furthermore, I explained the relationship between exaltation (the LDS term) and sanctification (the traditional Christian term). While there are some differences between the two, if you are to insist that our belief in exaltation is reason enough not to call us Christians, you'd have to also admit that anyone who believes in sanctification cannot be called a Christian either.

Holland isn't a member of the forum. Are you prepared to stand behind Holland's sermon.

So references to sources who aren't members of the forum is against the rules? What gives?

The discussion with regards to the church name came as a result of a false claim made by Katzpur. By the way if you believe the above then do you also believe that since the name of the church began as the Chruch of Christ that the lord told Joseph to take his name off the church when JS changed it to Church of latter day saints?

The only thing "false" about my claim was my admittedly careless inclusion of the name "Jesus" in the name the Church was known by when it was first established. I did not give a full history of the name changes because it was entirely relevant to the point I was making, that being that no non-Christian Church would include a reference to Christ in its name. Speaking of "false," here is a more complete history of how the name of the Church came to be:

When Joseph Smith first organized the Church on April 6, 1830, it was known as "The Church of Christ." It was later known as "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," "The Church of Jesus Christ," and "The Church of God." It was not until 1838 that the name by which the Lord wanted the Church to be known as was revealed to Joseph Smith. Since that time, it has been known as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

I trust this will prevent any additional "false" accusations being made against me.

[Goat]

Goat wrote:

However, there are a number of other beliefs that are at odds with the rest of Christian beliefs, such as

If all "Christians" had the same doctrine, there would be no denominations.

There is a growing trend toward "non-denominational" Christian where churches don't really make authoritative statements on doctrine, kind of like a diet drink - tastes good initially, but leaves a lot to be desired on the back end (a lot of unanswered questions).

Many of the "core" doctrines between Mormons and those of other Christian denominations are the same, but many Mormon doctrines are different because of our belief in an ancient Apostacy away from the immediate teachings of Christ and his Apostles and the need for a Restoration. Most of the protestant reformers, recognized the need for modern authority and revelation without making themselves out to be prophets - so, these great men protested (some sacrificed their very life) based on obvious violations of the scriptures - many churches were formed around their ideas.

In contrast, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet with both the authority and revelation needed to "restore" teachings, principals and priesthood lost centuries earlier. We believe that he did so in miraculous fashion. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and organization of the church are amazing works for a non-educated farm boy from upstate New York.

So, IMHO, if members of other churches don't agree with everything that we believe, I respect that and I don't lose any sleep over it. Mormons are different and proud of their beliefs - many which attempt to answer difficult doctrinal questions.

Yes, Joseph Smith made a claim.. does that mean that claim is true. The teachings he claims are at odds with all traditional church doctrine,

I can see why non-Mormons can be skeptical of the claims of Joseph Smith and the BOM.