Mormon Practices

[Kuan]

So were do you want to start Zzyzx? Should we continue with the early practice of polygamy? Just to clear up on another part of that, It was practiced also because of a large amount of widows who had no way to care for or move their families on the way to Utah and when they got there because their husbands had been murdered.

For those who dont know whats going on, me and Zzyzx were debating in a seperate thread, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14180&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=, over the early practices mormons had, namely polygamy and moved the discussion here.

[Flail]

So were do you want to start Zzyzx? Should we continue with the early practice of polygamy? Just to clear up on another part of that, It was practiced also because of a large amount of widows who had no way to care for or move their families on the way to Utah and when they got there because their husbands had been murdered.

For those who dont know whats going on, me and Zzyzx were debating in a seperate thread, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14180&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=, over the early practices mormons had, namely polygamy and moved the discussion here.

Could you restate the topic for debate? What is at issue?

[Kuan]

Early mormon practices such as polygamy and the history of it.

[Kuan]

Sorry about the bad link here you go,
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

[Zzyzx]

.

Early mormon practices such as polygamy and the history of it.

MB,

In this sub-forum, each thread requires a "question for debate". Some suggestions for the general topic area might be:

1) Are there fundamental differences between LDS and FLDS other than the polygamy issue?

2) When and why did the LDS denounce polygamy? Was that action related to statehood for Utah?

3) Is the "visitation" reported by Joseph Smith credible?

[Kuan]

OK, lets start with number one and when were satisfied move on to two sound good?

[Kuan]

The FLDS Church has been in the news lately because of a recent raid on its polygamous compound in Eldorado, Texas. The FLDS Church is in no way affiliated with the mainstream, LDS (Mormon) Church.

For 50 years in the 19th century, mainstream Mormons practiced a form of Christian polygamy. Because of threats from the U.S. Government, God instructed the president of the Church at that time, John Taylor, to suspend the practice. A cultural change of so great a magnitude did not occur immediately. In 1904 the Church recommitted itself to discontinuing the practice of polygamy and began excommunicating members who married multiple women.

As part of this effort, the Church asked local Mormon communities to sign a pledge that they had renounced polygamy. A small community in southern Utah refused to sign the pledge. It was discovered that the community was still practicing polygamy, and so, according to Church policy, the offenders were excommunicated. Several renegade break-off groups resulted, one of which became the FLDS church. Because about 80 years have now passed since this separation, few of the current members of the FLDS Church today have ever been Mormons. Most are descendants of ex-Mormons who left the Church several generations ago.

This seems accurate to me.

This next part could be very biased but it is still a stepping ground. The LDS part seems accurate to me but the FLDS might be misrepresented in here.

Here are some of the key differences between the two groups:
The Mormon Church has over 13 million members worldwide. The FLDS Church has about 6,000 members scattered in only a few small communities in North America.
The Mormon Church is extremely extroverted. We have 50,000 volunteer missionaries around the world. We also enjoy interacting with other religions and love and respect those of other faiths. The FLDS are extremely introverted and believe the people of the outside world are so evil that it is better to avoid them altogether.
Mormons and FLDS both consider the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be scripture. Additionally, Mormons have a book of scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants, which contains revelations received by modern Mormon prophets. FLDS only believe in those modern revelations received prior to 1890, while mainstream Mormons believe that post-1890 revelations are also scripture. Many important revelations have been received since 1890, including important scriptures in which God commanded Mormons to stop practicing polygamy, in which God explained much about the afterlife that motivates Mormon temple work today, and in which God command Mormons to abandon certain racist practices we unfortunately picked up from Protestants in the 19th century. Thus, Mormons do not practice polygamy and detest racism. In contrast, FLDS do practice polygamy and do hold racist doctrines.
The way FLDS currently practice polygamy differs in important ways from the way Mormons practiced polygamy in 19th-century Utah. A) Mormons always discouraged divorce, but Utah nevertheless had fairly liberal divorce laws so women could leave polygamous marriages if they so desired. B) Polygamous wives were encouraged to get a good education, and some early Mormon polygamist women became doctors and political activists. C) Polygamous marriages were not typically arranged or reassigned. Women were free to marry whoever they wished. Brigham Young stated the following in 1853: “I am free, and so are you. My advice to the sisters is, 'Never be [married] to any man unless you wish to be.' I say to you High Priests and Elders, 'Never from this time ask a woman to be [married] to you, unless she wants to be; but let the widows and children alone.'� D) Brigham Young came to detest the marriage of men with very young girls. In 1857, he stated, "I shall not [marry] the people as I have done. Old Father Alread brought three young girls 12 & 13 years old. I would not [marry] them to him. They would not be equally yoked together... this is the way that devils are made." E) Only an estimated 5%-30% of 19th-century Mormons were polygamists. The FLDS Church, on the other hand, has no liberal divorce laws, arranges and reassigns marriages, marries old men to young girls, and believes all members of the community should practice polygamy.
The Mormon Church has always been guided by 15 men (12 apostles and the 3 members of the First Presidency). This leadership by counsels prevents a single man from making drastic or extreme changes to Mormon doctrine and practices. Over the years the FLDS Church has concentrated ecclesiastical power in the hands of a single man, most recently Warren Jeffs, who has in fact changed the doctrine and practices of his church in extreme and despotic ways.
Mormons believe a man named Thomas S. Monson is a modern-day prophet who guides God's church. FLDS reject Thomas S. Monson and do not consider him to be a prophet. The last man considered a prophet by both Mormons and the FLDS lived in the late 19th century. The two churches now have completely separate with separate leadership.
FLDS have a strict and distinctive dress code. Mormons are encouraged to dress modestly, but, unless serving as missionaries, have no distinctive dress code.
Both Mormons and FLDS believe in sacred ordinances that take place in dedicated temples. While the FLDS have not made the details of their temple ceremonies public, evidence suggests some significant differences between Mormon and FLDS temple practices. Government agents recently discovered a bed in the FLDS temple at Eldorado that is allegedly used to consummate temple marriages. In contrast, none of the Mormon temple ordinances are sexual in nature.

Source: http://www.allaboutmormons.com/Blog/mor ... ENG_17.php

[scourge99]

I find many Mormon beliefs absurd if not silly from a non-believers point of view:

1) blessed underwear.
2) baptisms for people who are dead.
3) the mark of Cain (racism).
4) God living on a planet (Kolob).
5) Israelites living in America.

However, to their credit Mormons do have the ultimate trump card for their beliefs: continuous revelation. Such a mechanism allows for progressive reforms within the church that other sects can only achieve through a lot of mental and scriptural gymnastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation

[Kuan]

I find many Mormon beliefs absurd if not silly from a non-believers point of view:

1) blessed underwear.
2) baptisms for people who are dead.
3) the mark of Cain (racism).
4) God living on a planet (Kolob).
5) Israelites living in America.

However, to their credit Mormons do have the ultimate trump card for their beliefs: continuous revelation. Such a mechanism allows for progressive reforms within the church that other sects can only achieve through a lot of mental and scriptural gymnastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation

1. Whats that?
2. We believe that there are three degrees of glory in heaven. Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial. To make it to the Celestial one of the requirements is to be baptized.
3. Isnt that also in the bible?

This story is found in Gen. 4:1–16 and Moses 5:16–41.)

The first man and woman to live on the earth were Adam and Eve. God taught them the gospel, and they taught it to their children. But Satan tempted their children, saying, “Believe it not.� Many listened to Satan.

Two of the sons of Adam and Eve were named Cain and Abel. As Cain grew, he rebelled against his parents’ teachings. He refused to obey God, and chose to follow Satan. Cain’s rebelliousness made Adam and Eve very unhappy. They loved Cain very much and hoped he would become a righteous man. Adam had been given the priesthood and had passed this great blessing onto Cain. But Cain did not honor the priesthood.

Abel, however, was obedient. He followed the teachings and example of his parents. He received the priesthood and used it righteously.

When the two boys were older, Abel became a keeper of sheep, and Cain became a farmer. God spoke to Abel, and Abel loved God and kept his commandments.

God spoke to Cain, but Cain mocked God, saying, “Who is the Lord that I should know him?� Cain loved Satan more than God.

Abel obediently brought the new born lambs of his sheep and offered them as a sacrifice to the Lord. Abel had faith in God; he believed that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, would one day sacrifice his life for all mankind.

Satan commanded Cain, “Make an offering unto the Lord.� For his sacrifice Cain brought crops from his field. God could not accept Cain’s offering because Cain did not have faith in God. In giving his sacrifice, Cain was obeying Satan, not God. Satan knew Cain’s offering would not be accepted, and he was pleased that he had led someone to do wrong.

Cain was angry because his offering was not accepted, but the Lord still loved him. The Lord told Cain that if he would make the right kind of offering, He would accept it. The Lord warned Cain that Satan wanted him and he would come under Satan’s power if he did not obey the Lord’s commandments.

Cain became even more angry and refused to listen to the Lord. This brought Adam and Eve greater sorrow, for Cain had chosen wickedness instead of righteousness.

Cain was jealous that Abel’s offering had been accepted, but his had not. He was also jealous of Abel’s sheep and wanted them. The more he thought about his brother, the more Cain’s hatred and anger grew.

Satan continued to teach and tempt Cain in the ways of wickedness, saying, “Swear that thou wilt obey me and shalt tell no one, and I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.�

When Cain heard these words, he exclaimed proudly, “Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain.�

Then Cain went out into the field to find his brother. While they talked Cain killed Abel.

Cain believed Satan. He thought no one would find out that he had murdered his brother.

But the Lord came to Cain and said, “Where is Abel, they brother?�

Cain lied: “I know not. Am I my brother’s keeper?�

The Lord spoke again: “What has thou done? The voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now thou shalt be cursed.�

Satan had lied to Cain. When Cain realized that the Lord knew what he had done, he tried to blame someone else; he said, “Satan tempted me.�

The Lord told Cain that because he had rebelled and had killed Abel, he would be shut out from the presence of God. He would be hunted and chased and would never have a home upon the earth.

Cain said unto the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. From thy face shall I be hid, and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me will slay me.�

But the Lord did not want Cain to be killed. He set a mark upon Cain so that any people who saw him would know that they must not harm him.

Cain was punished by being shut out from the presence of the Lord. He, his wife, and many of his brothers left Adam and Eve and went to live in the land of Nod

4. We believe that he has a body and created us in his image. He doesn't live on kolob, we just believe that it is the closet planet to him.
5. Well, they sailed across the seas to get here and they became the Indians.

This interview between Helen Whitney at PBS and our apostle Boyd K Packer might help you. About halfway down they discuss the plan of salvation that we believe in.
PBS

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

I find many Mormon beliefs absurd if not silly from a non-believers point of view:

1) blessed underwear.
2) baptisms for people who are dead.
3) the mark of Cain (racism).
4) God living on a planet (Kolob).
5) Israelites living in America.

However, to their credit Mormons do have the ultimate trump card for their beliefs: continuous revelation. Such a mechanism allows for progressive reforms within the church that other sects can only achieve through a lot of mental and scriptural gymnastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation

1. Whats that?
2. We believe that there are three degrees of glory in heaven. Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial. To make it to the Celestial one of the requirements is to be baptized.
3. Isnt that also in the bible?

This story is found in Gen. 4:1–16 and Moses 5:16–41.)

The first man and woman to live on the earth were Adam and Eve. God taught them the gospel, and they taught it to their children. But Satan tempted their children, saying, “Believe it not.� Many listened to Satan.

Two of the sons of Adam and Eve were named Cain and Abel. As Cain grew, he rebelled against his parents’ teachings. He refused to obey God, and chose to follow Satan. Cain’s rebelliousness made Adam and Eve very unhappy. They loved Cain very much and hoped he would become a righteous man. Adam had been given the priesthood and had passed this great blessing onto Cain. But Cain did not honor the priesthood.

Abel, however, was obedient. He followed the teachings and example of his parents. He received the priesthood and used it righteously.

When the two boys were older, Abel became a keeper of sheep, and Cain became a farmer. God spoke to Abel, and Abel loved God and kept his commandments.

God spoke to Cain, but Cain mocked God, saying, “Who is the Lord that I should know him?� Cain loved Satan more than God.

Abel obediently brought the new born lambs of his sheep and offered them as a sacrifice to the Lord. Abel had faith in God; he believed that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, would one day sacrifice his life for all mankind.

Satan commanded Cain, “Make an offering unto the Lord.� For his sacrifice Cain brought crops from his field. God could not accept Cain’s offering because Cain did not have faith in God. In giving his sacrifice, Cain was obeying Satan, not God. Satan knew Cain’s offering would not be accepted, and he was pleased that he had led someone to do wrong.

Cain was angry because his offering was not accepted, but the Lord still loved him. The Lord told Cain that if he would make the right kind of offering, He would accept it. The Lord warned Cain that Satan wanted him and he would come under Satan’s power if he did not obey the Lord’s commandments.

Cain became even more angry and refused to listen to the Lord. This brought Adam and Eve greater sorrow, for Cain had chosen wickedness instead of righteousness.

Cain was jealous that Abel’s offering had been accepted, but his had not. He was also jealous of Abel’s sheep and wanted them. The more he thought about his brother, the more Cain’s hatred and anger grew.

Satan continued to teach and tempt Cain in the ways of wickedness, saying, “Swear that thou wilt obey me and shalt tell no one, and I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.�

When Cain heard these words, he exclaimed proudly, “Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain.�

Then Cain went out into the field to find his brother. While they talked Cain killed Abel.

Cain believed Satan. He thought no one would find out that he had murdered his brother.

But the Lord came to Cain and said, “Where is Abel, they brother?�

Cain lied: “I know not. Am I my brother’s keeper?�

The Lord spoke again: “What has thou done? The voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now thou shalt be cursed.�

Satan had lied to Cain. When Cain realized that the Lord knew what he had done, he tried to blame someone else; he said, “Satan tempted me.�

The Lord told Cain that because he had rebelled and had killed Abel, he would be shut out from the presence of God. He would be hunted and chased and would never have a home upon the earth.

Cain said unto the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. From thy face shall I be hid, and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me will slay me.�

But the Lord did not want Cain to be killed. He set a mark upon Cain so that any people who saw him would know that they must not harm him.

Cain was punished by being shut out from the presence of the Lord. He, his wife, and many of his brothers left Adam and Eve and went to live in the land of Nod

4. We believe that he has a body and created us in his image. He doesn't live on kolob, we just believe that it is the closet planet to him.
5. Well, they sailed across the seas to get here and they became the Indians.

This interview between Helen Whitney at PBS and our apostle Boyd K Packer might help you. About halfway down they discuss the plan of salvation that we believe in.
PBS

What evidence do you have for the claim that Native Americans are actually Israelites who sailed across the seas? That might be the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard on these forums, and that's saying a lot.