Toward a better Christian-Muslim understanding

[EduChris]

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...lets start by discussing what our religions teach.
The basics of christianity are God is one but is 3.
Jesus died for your sins.
Believing Jesus is God is the only way to salvation.

If you could briefly explain why you are a christian and why you believe its the correct path. And i will express my opinions and we can have a civil talk...

First I would say that the basics of Christianity are:

1) God is love
2) In Jesus, God became human in order to suffer with us and for us, so that as a result of having "walked a mile in our shoes" (so to speak) God can forgive us on the basis of his direct personal experience of what it is to be human.
3) Following the teaching and example of Jesus is the best way to experience salvation and to extend it in the world.

I am a Christian, and I believe Jesus provides the best path for two reasons. First, I experience a personal relationship with Jesus, something that I am aware of at the intuitive level. Secondly, I choose the Christian story because it seems most genuine and most true-to-experience when compared to other major world religions and worldviews.

Obviously these are somewhat general statements, but I will give you a chance to respond now and to ask additional questions.

[EduChris]

What would happen if any well-known Islamic scholar were to say that, based on his best determination, other ancient Arabic texts are just as good or better than the Qur'an? Wouldn't he be subject to a fatwah and killed?

Maybe in the taliban infested Afghanistan.

True, but not only there among the Islamic Taliban. Salmon Rushdie didn't live among the Taliban, did he?

Perhaps you could explain the significance of the Medina vd. Mecca passages in the Qur'an?

Im sorry it does not ring any bells, more detail on the specific passages?

You are not aware of these very important differences? You'll need to study your own Qur'anic literature, since I doubt you'll accept my tutelage.

Apart from the Bible, Abraham would not be known at all by anyone today.

That is untrue, Abraham is mentioned in clear detail in the Quran.

The author of the Qur'an would have no knowledge of Abraham were it not for the Bible. The Qur'an is quite derivative, even if it alters details and adopts speculative oral traditions that developed after the biblical accounts were written down.

Also according to the bible, Jesus prayed and beleived in God(clear give-away). Also in the bible God cannot be seen(you will argue that its talking about God's spirit form, but its a clear contradiction) Also in the bible God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was. Also in the Bible, Jesus denied the knowledge of the Unseen and said that only the Father knows, God in the Quran is all knowing, all aware...Also in the bible, Jesus said "the Father is Greater than I", do you see a clear distinction between the two?...

Jesus emptied himself of his divine privileges, so that he could become fully human. Jesus is God in terms of his identity, but while on earth Jesus needed to rely on prayer just as all humans do.

...if according to Christians Muhammad had a good 'intention', he would of believed that Jesus was God before he started to get revelations...

No, not at all. He needn't have believed that Jesus was God; in order to have started with good intentions, he merely would have needed to want his people to overcome their allegiance to idols.

Perhaps, but doesn't even the Qur'an itself say that some parts are not clear?

Not that i can remember, which verses are you talking about.

I'm thinking specifically about Qur'an 3:7, where it says "It is He Who has revealed to you the Book, with verses which are precise in meaning and which are the Mother of the Book, and others which are ambiguous...no one except Allah knows its interpretation." Obviously there are parts of the Qur'an where no one but Allah knows the interpretation. Do Muslims agree on which parts are clear, and which parts are ambiguous?

That verse was not even in the Bible when the doctrine of the Trinity was being defined, so it was never part of any evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity.

I know when the trinity doctrine was created but the Gospel of John was used mainly as evidence for it. And thus this particular verse creates doubt in the other sections of the Gospel.

The spurious verse you mentioned was not part of the Gospel of John at all. Moreover, the Trinity is implicit in many other parts of the New Testament besides the Gospel of John.

That verse was accidentally inserted into some manuscripts because of a scribal error during medieval times. But fortunately, since Christians didn't destroy their "paper trail" of ancient manuscripts, the forensic science of textual criticism has been able to identify that verse as a medieval error.

Do you have proof it was a scribal error?

The spurious verse you mentioned does not appear in any Greek manuscript or NT translation prior to the 14th century.

...The presence of numerous existing bibles that all differ from one another is not something i would agree to be 'fortunate' if i was a Christian...

The forensic science of textual criticism depends on having as many early manuscripts as possible from as many different geographical areas as possible. This is the only way to ascertain and recover the original text of ancient documents. Unfortunately, this paper trail for the Qur'an was deliberately destroyed by the Islamic rulers 150 years after Mohammad, with the result that the forensic science of textual criticism cannot be used to recover the original wording of the Qur'an.

...the early copies of the Quran differed from one another...The incomplete/false copies of the Quran were ordered to be destroyed and thus all the Qurans were at their original state, letter for letter.

Yes, this is the standard Islamic faith-claim, but it cannot be independently verified. Moreover, there do exist multiple Qur'ans which do not agree with each other.

...most muslims know that Christians believe in 1 God, but that they divide that god into 3 entity's...

You might think you understand the doctrine, but to Christians it seems that the Qur'anic/Islamic understanding is like that of a child who has not yet developed the capacity for abstract thought. Muslims of course will say that the Qur'anic author did have the capacity for abstract thought, but if that is indeed the case, then the Qur'anic author was deliberately trying to speak of the Trinity in the most stupid manner possible. That may be a good rhetorical tactic when you're preaching to your own choir, but it is hardly the best way to get the targets of your discourse to pay attention.

...That is the thing, 200 years later forensic science could advance and a better text can be produced which could make your current beliefs false...

People who understand the forensic science of textual criticism, as it pertains to the New Testament, would not agree with your statement. I'm surprised you have such little knowledge of textual criticism, since the practice is not unknown to Muslim scholars who try to piece together the Islamic haddiths.

At any rate, when it comes to deciding what scriptures are inspired by God, the only thing we can do is examine the best texts we have available to us and see which scriptures seem to present the best understanding of God

...I have read the Bible and i dont see how you consider its description of God being more clear and more detailed than the Qurans description...

Jesus demonstrates God's great love for humans. God actually became human in Jesus and shared our weaknesses and our sufferings. Since God has "walked a mile in our shoes," so to speak, God has earned the right both to judge us and forgive us. Only a loving God is worthy to judge us and forgive us, and the Allah of the Qur'an hardly seems to be a loving God.

The Quran agree's with you that some attributes of God cannot be understood because of our human limitations:

Precisely.

...i ask you to help me interpret the following so it does not look like contradictions...If you can answer these i will agree with you that God is the Ultimate Author of the current Bible...

You appear to be using an anti-Christian polemical Islamic website as a reference for your "contradictions." Using a modern English translation of the Bible, which is based on the best original-language texts obtained from the forensic science of textual criticism, would eliminate many of your supposed "contradictions." Any reminaing matters would either be trivial/inconsequential or else cleared up according to standard hermenutic principles.

Rather than your continuing to try and discredit the Bible, perhaps your time would be better served trying to explain why the Allah of the Qur'an is worthy of worship? And also, why are Islamic societies so often among the most regressive, harsh, and intolerant societies in the world today? Why hasn't the Qur'anic teaching been able to elevate these Islamic societies to become more tolerant, compassionate, and progressive?

[Murad]

True, but not only there among the Islamic Taliban. Salmon Rushdie didn't live among the Taliban, did he?

I dont know who Salmon Rushdie is.
Im sure the case that anyone who disapproves of Islam or offends it will get killed is absurd. There is nothing stopping people from giving their opinions about the Quran.
There are religious scholars all over the world, compressing the whole of Islam for a certain mans act isn't fair.

You are not aware of these very important differences? You'll need to study your own Qur'anic literature, since I doubt you'll accept my tutelage.

I asked for you to point me to the particular verses?

The author of the Qur'an would have no knowledge of Abraham were it not for the Bible. The Qur'an is quite derivative, even if it alters details and adopts speculative oral traditions that developed after the biblical accounts were written down

That is true from the Christian perspective as the Bible is 100% perfect and the Quran is 100% false, so obviously the author of the Quran had to copy the Torah
I feel like im repeating myself; The Quran is a completely different revalation. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah except to reinforce its messege.
Muhammad was illiterate and uneducated, there is absolutely no proof in history that he was taught about Christianity.
Let me give you an example that will change your mind:

The Quran refers to 'Haman': a character whose name is mentioned in the Qur'an, along with the Pharaoh. He is mentioned in six different places in the Qur'an, in which it informs us that he was one of Pharaoh's closest allies.

Surprisingly, the name "Haman" is never mentioned in those sections of the Torah pertaining to the life of the Prophet Moses. However, the mention of Haman can be found in the last chapters of the Old Testament as the helper of a Babylonian king who inflicted many cruelties on the Israelites approximately 1,100 years after the Prophet Moses.

And thus early Christians believed the name "Haman" was evidence that whoever copied the Bible to the Quran had made a clear error.

In 1799 the Egyptian hieroglyphics was solved by the discovery of a tablet called the "Rosetta Stone." It was dated back to 196 B.C
Through the decoding of hieroglyph, an important piece of knowledge was revealed: The name "Haman" was indeed mentioned in Egyptian inscriptions. This name was referred to in a monument in the Hof Museum in Vienna. This same inscription also indicated the close relationship between Haman and the Pharaoh

In the dictionary of People in the New Kingdom, that was prepared based on the entire collection of inscriptions, Haman is said to be "the head of stone quarry workers."

The result revealed a very important truth. Unlike the false assertion of the opponents of the Qur'an, Haman was a person who lived in Egypt at the time of the Prophet Moses. He had been close to the Pharaoh and had been involved in construction work, just as imparted in the Qur'an.

Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Moses' god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)

Jesus emptied himself of his divine privileges, so that he could become fully human. Jesus is God in terms of his identity, but while on earth Jesus needed to rely on prayer just as all humans do.

Please quote any bible passages of Jesus emptying his divine privileges.

I'm thinking specifically about Qur'an 3:7, where it says "It is He Who has revealed to you the Book, with verses which are precise in meaning and which are the Mother of the Book, and others which are ambiguous...no one except Allah knows its interpretation."

Well it says "precise in meaning", meaning the Quran is straight-forward to understand.
"no one except Allah knows its interpretation" can refer to numerous things.
For example the Quran states the 2 tribes Gog and Magog are imprisoned behind a wall. So it is easy to understand as the Quran says. But what could "wall" mean? Wall of stone, wall of water e.g. surrounded by rivers, or a wall of divine force etc.
So only Allah knows the interpretation.
Another example is the Quran says close to the last hour, a beast will be released.
It is "precise in meaning" as the Quran says.
But this 'beast' can be interpreted into numerous things by the human perspective.
Thus: "no one except Allah knows its interpretation"
Muslim scholars are well aware of what you mean. They dont know 100% on what the "wall" is or what the "beast" is, that can vary between human perspective. I doubt Muhammad 100% knew, only Allah knows best.

the Trinity is implicit in many other parts of the New Testament besides the Gospel of John.

Quote me passages from the bible and i can give you a reply.

Yes, this is the standard Islamic faith-claim, but it cannot be independently verified. Moreover, there do exist multiple Qur'ans which do not agree with each other.

The large majority of Muslims believe in the same Quran(Sunni,Shia,Sufi) however i understand there exists different Quran's that have different verbs and adjectives that exist in africa and some other places within the middle east.

I'm surprised you have such little knowledge of textual criticism, since the practice is not unknown to Muslim scholars who try to piece together the Islamic haddiths.

Hadiths are usually considered 100% authentic by fundamentalists, we muslims know which hadiths are more authentic than others and we never use the hadith's as the standard basis of an arguement or opinion, rather the Quran.

Jesus demonstrates God's great love for humans. God actually became human in Jesus and shared our weaknesses and our sufferings. Since God has "walked a mile in our shoes," so to speak, God has earned the right both to judge us and forgive us. Only a loving God is worthy to judge us and forgive us.

Well EduChris, ask yourself, does God need to follow Christian convention to Judge people. When you say "God has earned the right both to judge us and forgive us" I highly disagree with you, God does not need to earn something, he is the Almighty and has absolute power.

and the Allah of the Qur'an hardly seems to be a loving God

Well its true, the God of the New Testament does seem more loving because it talks about less punishment.
The thing is, if you love God and don't fear him, there will be sinning and you will rely on your 'love' to enter heaven.
If you fear God but dont love him, you will be like a monk and will not experience this life Allah has blessed us with.

Islam provides balance with both love and fear.

(3: 31) Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
So fear Allah, as much as you are able to, and listen and obey… (Surat at-Taghabun: 16)

You appear to be using an anti-Christian polemical Islamic website as a reference for your "contradictions."

Funny you consider it Anti-Christian, when one of your links was "Answering Islam" which is clearly an Anti-Islamic website. Please dont be hypocritical here.
I dont understand why you put 'contradictions' in speech marks.
Instead of referring me to some book that i have to buy, why dont you use the absolute truth and answer my questions? To make me change my position in belief you have to give me answers not refer me to here and there.

perhaps your time would be better served trying to explain why the Allah of the Qur'an is worthy of worship?

Allah aka. Jehova, Hashem, God, is the sole single deity, he is the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, the God of Muhammad.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
It is he alone that can forgive sins, there is no power greater than he, and the Quranic verse states "The sheep are not greater than the Shephard, verily the Creation is not greater than Allah"

And also, why are Islamic societies so often among the most regressive, harsh, and intolerant societies in the world today?

Unfortunately that is what they have come to, after the fall of the Khilafah the majority of the Muslims started to perish, in the poor environments they live in, extremists began and took hostages for money and started to interpret some verses of the Quran for their own gain, for their personal or political advantages.

Why some muslim community's are "Intolerant" can be for multiple reasons. One is the help of America to Israel with $20 Billion of military aid. While doing nothing about the illegal occupation and the alienation of Gaza from the outside world. This then is magnified by the media and then fed to the Muslim communities. Hate is then brewed and more extremists are made and thus the problem is continuous and the cycle continues.

Why hasn't the Qur'anic teaching been able to elevate these Islamic societies to become more tolerant, compassionate, and progressive?

What you know about Islam is what your News Channel wants you to know(suicide bombers).
No one is denying there is a handful of people killing, raping, blowing up, and calling themselves muslims. That is what muslims are stereotyped these days.

History tells us:
The treatment of the Christians and Jews by Muslim states, Arab or Ottoman, was far superior to the treatment Muslims and Jews received at the hands of Christian states, or Palestinians at the hands of the Jewish state of Israel.

If you want history's opinion of Islam: http://www.freemuslims.org/news.php?id=4076


We muslims know that we are not the best in technological progression, no doubt. But you would be wrong to say Muslims havn't altered our daily life and altered science in a Good way: http://nikhasnan.wordpress.com/2006/12/ ... cientists/


P.S. Im waiting for you to give me answers on the speech marked "contradictions"

[EduChris]

...I dont know who Salmon Rushdie is...There is nothing stopping people from giving their opinions about the Quran...

See Salmon Rushdie. He is not the only modern academic to suffer from Islamic fatwahs. Also see, Reading Lolita in Tehran (available in most libraries).

...I asked for you to point me to the particular verses?...

Meccan suras were written first, and then the Medinan suras were written. Many Qur'ans will have introductions to each sura, identifying them as Meccan or Medinan. There is quite a bit of difference between these two eras, and many disagreements between Muslims arise because one group will say that the Meccan sura has priority, while the other will say that the Medinan sura has priority. Generally, the Meccan suras are more tolerant towards minorities (since at this time the followers of Mohammad were numerically weak) and the Medinan suras are more aggressive and intolerant (since by this time Mohammad had gained military and political strength).

...Let me give you an example that will change your mind...In 1799 the Egyptian hieroglyphics was solved by the discovery of a tablet called the "Rosetta Stone." It was dated back to 196 B.C...

Sounds like your source here is Harun Yahya. No scholar in the world takes the claims of that charlatan seriously.

...Please quote any bible passages of Jesus emptying his divine privileges...

Philippians 2:5-11

...The large majority of Muslims believe in the same Quran(Sunni,Shia,Sufi) however i understand there exists different Quran's that have different verbs and adjectives that exist in africa and some other places within the middle east...

Okay, so at least we agree that there are different Qur'ans even today, and there were even more Qur'ans prior to the time that the Islamic rulers deliberately destroyed the paper trail that would have allowed the forensic science of textual criticism to independently verify the accuracy of today's Qur'ans.

...ask yourself, does God need to follow Christian convention to Judge people. When you say "God has earned the right both to judge us and forgive us" I highly disagree with you, God does not need to earn something, he is the Almighty and has absolute power...

You're right. God didn't need to "earn" the right to judge us and forgive us, but according to Christian tradition, God did this anyway.

...Well its true, the God of the New Testament does seem more loving because it talks about less punishment...The thing is, if you love God and don't fear him, there will be sinning and you will rely on your 'love' to enter heaven...Islam provides balance with both love and fear...

According to the Bible, God loves all persons. And God expects his children to protect the helpless, to practice hospitality, and work for justice. I think there is much room for Christians and Muslims and Jews to work together for the sake of good in the world. Instead of bickering with one another, why not try to outdo each other in acts of mercy and compassion and forgiveness and good will?

...God, is the sole single deity, he is the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, the God of Muhammad...

There is perhaps some room for agreement here. Christians and Muslims and Jews all believe they worship the One True God.

...extremists began and took hostages for money and started to interpret some verses of the Quran for their own gain, for their personal or political advantages...

Yes, so the Qur'an can be twisted toward evil purposes. The same can be said of the Bible. This may be another area were Christians and Muslims and Jews can all work together to help ensure that the true message of their respective scriptures is not distorted.

...some muslim community's are "Intolerant"...for multiple reasons...

Including, perhaps, the reason that the Qur'anic command prohibiting compulsion in religion is violated by Sharia law? How did the Sharia law become so opposed to the Qur'anic prohibition against compulsion in religion?

...No one is denying there is a handful of people killing, raping, blowing up, and calling themselves muslims...

I think you are overly minimizing the problem. Muslims who are terrorists emphasize the aggressive and intolerant Medinan suras of the Qur'an; Muslims who are not terrorists or terrorist sympathizers emphasize the less intolerant Meccan suras.

...P.S. Im waiting for you to give me answers on the speech marked "contradictions"

Why don't you select the three most significant, most troubling "contradictions" and I'll show you how Christians deal with them. In return, you will agree to not keep bringing up further "contradictions." There's no point in engaging in contradiction duels, since I think we both understand that "outsiders" generally are not going to convince "insiders" who have some understanding of context and hermeneutics.

When selecting your three "contradictions," you might want to run them by a modern Bible translation, such as the one provided by this link.

[Murad]

Meccan suras were written first, and then the Medinan suras were written. Many Qur'ans will have introductions to each sura, identifying them as Meccan or Medinan. There is quite a bit of difference between these two eras, and many disagreements between Muslims arise because one group will say that the Meccan sura has priority, while the other will say that the Medinan sura has priority. Generally, the Meccan suras are more tolerant towards minorities (since at this time the followers of Mohammad were numerically weak) and the Medinan suras are more aggressive and intolerant (since by this time Mohammad had gained military and political strength).

Oh thats what your talking about.
I personally do not know if 1 verse can be more powerful in authority than the other, thats a question i should ask a scholar.
If you check the timeline on Islamic warfare, you will see that during the time when Muhammad had an exodus there was no warfare, but only running away from hot persuit(similar to Moses), thats why there weren't verses about war in the meccan suras.
The lords and kings of arabia became scared as they did not want Islam in any way, so they waged war against Muhammad and his Sahaba's. While in the battlefield, Prophet Muhammad used to shake violently, and sweat even if it was snowing, and when his companions ran up to him to ask whats wrong he replied "’Never once did I receive a revelation without thinking that my soul had been torn away from me.’"
This is when he received verses such as:

Fight and slay the pagans (unbelievers) wherever you find them" (9:5)

Every muslim knows these verses are historical and if you read the context you will see it is during the time of war(extremists usually love these verses). Also almost after every verse about fighiting it says if they want peace grant it to them.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sounds like your source here is Harun Yahya. No scholar in the world takes the claims of that charlatan seriously.

Did you even read what i wrote? That is a completely different person at a completely different time. The Harun in the Quran is the Harun in egypt at the time of Moses
Please re-read what i wrote.

Philippians 2:5-11

And this was written by Paul. The same Paul who abolished the Holy Mosaic Law of Moses, yet you consider him a righteous man. Lets see what Jesus had to say about this.

Matthew 5:17-20

Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

According to the Bible, God loves all persons. And God expects his children to protect the helpless, to practice hospitality, and work for justice. I think there is much room for Christians and Muslims and Jews to work together for the sake of good in the world. Instead of bickering with one another, why not try to outdo each other in acts of mercy and compassion and forgiveness and good will?

I absolutely agree with you, im sure since you read the Quran you didn't miss this verse:

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

There is perhaps some room for agreement here. Christians and Muslims and Jews all believe they worship the One True God.

Muslims and Jews believe in the same God. I dont think you can equate the God of Christianity to Judaism and Islam when you consider Jesus to be God.

How did the Sharia law become so opposed to the Qur'anic prohibition against compulsion in religion?

There is not a single country at this current time that lives under the rule of True Sharia Law. True Sharia Law can only exist under a khilafah, if you do research on the khilafah you will see that Christians and Jews under Islamic rule were treated very well and better than Muslim 'infidels' under Christian rule and certainly better than Muslims treated under Jewish Laws in Israel.

Why don't you select the three most significant, most troubling "contradictions" and I'll show you how Christians deal with them. In return, you will agree to not keep bringing up further "contradictions."

Ok 3 it is.
I agree, i will not bring up "Contradictions"(notice speech marks) if you can provide me answers for only these 3 questions. The following questions put the authenticity and the 'holyness' of the bible in doubt.

Remember: (Proverbs 30:5) Every word of God is flawless

1.
Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

2.
The Author of the Bible did not know simple maths which an elementary student does.
Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra).
(b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

3.
How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8).
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

[EduChris]

...I personally do not know if 1 verse can be more powerful in authority than the other, thats a question i should ask a scholar...

If you ask an Islamic scholar who sympathizes with the Islamic terrorists, he will give more weight to the Medinan passages. If you ask an Islamic scholar who doesn't sympathize with Islamic terrorism, he will emphasize the Meccan passages. And some Islamic scholars will say that the Meccan passages have priority when Muslims are politically and militarily weak, while the Medinan passages will have priority when Muslims are politically and militarily strong.

...Also almost after every verse about fighiting it says if they want peace grant it to them..."if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity..."

Sounds like, "repent or die" to me. What happens if they ask for peace but do not wish to change their religious practices and observances? How is this compatible with "no compulsion in religion"?

Sounds like your source here is Harun Yahya. No scholar in the world takes the claims of that charlatan seriously.

Did you even read what i wrote? That is a completely different person at a completely different time...

I'm not saying that Harun Yahya is the same person as the Haman of the Qur'an. What I saying is, only some shyster such as Yahya would try to make the argument that the Qur'an contains anything of value in terms of science or pre-Islamic history. No credentialed (non-Muslim) scholar in the world believes that the Qur'an is a viable source of historical information for pre-Islamic times.

...And this was written by Paul. The same Paul who abolished the Holy Mosaic Law of Moses, yet you consider him a righteous man. Lets see what Jesus had to say about this...

Context is everything. The Old Testament laws were intended for a specific purpose and time, and they were never intended for non-Jewish people. Jesus invalidated the Jewish dietary laws, and his disciples confirmed that non-Jews were not subject to Jewish ceremonial laws.

...im sure since you read the Quran you didn't miss this verse: "...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

The problem with the Qur'an is that whenever you find a verse that sounds nice, you can always find other verses that don't sound so nice. Try Qur'an 5:51,55, for example: "O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as friends...Whoever of you takes them as friends is surely one of them...Your only friends are Allah, His Messenger and those who believe..."

...There is not a single country at this current time that lives under the rule of True Sharia Law. True Sharia Law can only exist under a khilafah...

My question is, how can the execution of those who convert from Islam to, say, Christianity, be mandated under Sharia law (as you have admitted to be the case elsewhere on this forum) when the Qur'an expressly says, "There must be no compulsion in religion"?

...I agree, i will not bring up "Contradictions"(notice speech marks) if you can provide me answers for only these 3 questions. The following questions put the authenticity and the 'holyness' of the bible in doubt...

Who killed Goliath?
David, according to 1 Samuel 17:48-50.
In 2 Samuel 21:19, Elhanan kills a brother of Goliath. See also 1 Chronicles 20:5.


Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close.
Although these passages may be among those where only Allah knows the interpretation, usually the differences are explained by supposing that Ezra and Nehemiah listed only those groups which were prominent to them, omitting a number of people who were included in the total but who didn't fit into any of the groups that were prominent enough to be listed with their own subtotal. In any event, the numbers are not relevant to Jewish or Christian doctrine or practice.


How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
Eighteen, according to 2 Kings 24:8.
Eighteen, according to 2 Chronicles 36:9.

[Darias]

I haven't read any of the 7 pages of text in this thread, but I figured I'd answer this post.


I went to a mosque this spring as a requirement for my Islamic studies class at my university.

I was nervous at first. I felt very out of place. I over dressed because I didn't want to show disrespect. I was wearing a long sleeved shirt, tucked into some dockers. It was hot outside too.

When I got there, everyone was wearing un-tucked Hawaiian shirts. Everyone was friendly. I got lots of handshakes. And they spoke English well. Many members were of African American decent, but they were not members of the Nation of Islam, not to be confused with the religion of Islam.

It was very quiet inside. People were praying quietly. Older men sat in chairs. I sat on the floor close to the front.

One man sounded like he was praying in tongues - he kept saying thank you God and some other stuff.

I closed my eyes and prayed too, mainly because I was nervous and I didn't know if I was sitting correctly or sticking out or whatever....

Then the imam came and spoke. He prayed and said how thankful they were that they could worship freely in this country, and that they would not be able to practice their religion the way they saw fit if they were in a Muslim country.

The message was very good - he talked about peace and helping others, etc.

I and the other members of my class that were not Muslim had to sit in the side hall during the end of the service when the congregation prayed in Arabic. It was a ritual only for Muslims.

I wasn't offended because I remembered that Communion is a ritual only for Christian believers.

So, I figured that was okay.

Overall it was a good experience.

It pretty much completely tore down the image I had of Islam that I first conceived when I was in grade school - after witnessing 9/11

I had learned a lot about Islam since 9/11, I even had a friend from a Muslim home at my old college, but I had never actually experienced the actual religion.


I forgot to mention that I am a Christian


Anyways, I just wanted to share my thoughts...

[Murad]

If you ask an Islamic scholar who sympathizes with the Islamic terrorists, he will give more weight to the Medinan passages. If you ask an Islamic scholar who doesn't sympathize with Islamic terrorism, he will emphasize the Meccan passages. And some Islamic scholars will say that the Meccan passages have priority when Muslims are politically and militarily weak, while the Medinan passages will have priority when Muslims are politically and militarily strong.

You are assuming and giving your personal opinion, but because i dont know the answer like i said i will ask a scholar when i have the chance to.

Sounds like, "repent or die" to me. What happens if they ask for peace but do not wish to change their religious practices and observances? How is this compatible with "no compulsion in religion"?

If they dont want to be a muslim but want to live in area's controlled by Islamic Law, they will have to pay what is called 'Jizya'. A tax that ensures their security and wellbeing in the nation and even security(from troops) incase of invasion.

I'm not saying that Harun Yahya is the same person as the Haman of the Qur'an. What I saying is, only some shyster such as Yahya would try to make the argument that the Qur'an contains anything of value in terms of science or pre-Islamic history. No credentialed (non-Muslim) scholar in the world believes that the Qur'an is a viable source of historical information for pre-Islamic times.

To athiests, the Quran and the Bible and any other religious text have no use for them except to show the religious beliefs.

My question is, how can the execution of those who convert from Islam to, say, Christianity, be mandated under Sharia law (as you have admitted to be the case elsewhere on this forum) when the Qur'an expressly says, "There must be no compulsion in religion"?

Check the history of the Khilafah, many muslims converted to jews athiests christians etc.. and they weren't killed. I dont know what saudi arabia bases their arguement of execution on.

Who killed Goliath?
David, according to 1 Samuel 17:48-50.
In 2 Samuel 21:19, Elhanan kills a brother of Goliath. See also 1 Chronicles 20:5.

You gave me another translation, the NIV that is the most widely accepted(to be authentic) Bible states otherwise and the contradiction stands.

On the website:

# 2 Samuel 21:19 As in parallel text at 1 Chr 20:5; Hebrew reads killed Goliath of Gath.

Although these passages may be among those where only Allah knows the interpretation, usually the differences are explained by supposing that Ezra and Nehemiah listed only those groups which were prominent to them, omitting a number of people who were included in the total but who didn't fit into any of the groups that were prominent enough to be listed with their own subtotal. In any event, the numbers are not relevant to Jewish or Christian doctrine or practice.

EduChris you are assuming: "Ezra and Nehemiah listed only those groups which were prominent to them". Assumption and Opinion does not make the contradiction go away.
Why wont you just agree there is no answer?

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
Eighteen, according to 2 Kings 24:8.
Eighteen, according to 2 Chronicles 36:9.

That is not the NIV translation but anyway lets say i accept this translation, the contradiction still stands because:

Yes in the new living translation both verses say 18 BUT... under 2 Chronicles 36:9 on the website it says:

Footnotes:

1. 2 Chronicles 36:9 As in one Hebrew manuscript, some Greek manuscripts, and Syriac version (see also 2 Kgs 24:8); most Hebrew manuscripts read eight.

We can see that the Chronicles claim of Jehoiachin being 18 is mainly based on kings, and that infact most hebrew manuscripts read "8".

So what we can see is the "New Living Translation" is based on assumption and opinion on what should be right, but the hebrew manuscripts which the english bible is derived from still stand, and the contradictions are undeniable and thus the Bible is not Holy.

I was nervous at first. I felt very out of place. I over dressed because I didn't want to show disrespect. I was wearing a long sleeved shirt, tucked into some dockers. It was hot outside too.

Hehe we dont bite
Im happy for you, im sure you learnt being a muslim is not blowing yourself up(which is mainly stereotyped by the media)

[EduChris]

...I dont know what saudi arabia bases their arguement of execution on.

This might be a good question to ask your Islamic scholars...Probably they will say that since Mohammad killed apostates, the Sharia Law also prescribes the killing of apostates.

...You gave me another translation, the NIV that is the most widely accepted(to be authentic) Bible states otherwise and the contradiction stands.

Since you have accepted the NIV as your "gold standard" for Bible translations, here is what the NIV study notes say: "...Based on the parallel passage in 1 Chron 20:5, some think that 'Lahmi the brother of' has been deleted from the text before 'Goliath' in this verse...A final suggestion...is that 'Goliath' was a common noun for a giant, just as 'Achish' (1 Sam 21:10; 27:2) may have been a title or common noun for a Philistine ruler (just as 'Pharaoh' is a title of the king of Egypt, not a name). There is therefore no conflict in saying that both David and Elhanan killed [a] 'Goliath.'"

The NLT translators have chosen to amend the text per the first option described in the NIV notes. The NIV translators have adopted the view that 'Goliath' is not a proper name, but rather a general title that could be applied to any giant. If the NIV is correct, then there is no contradiction.

...Why wont you just agree there is no answer?...

There are a number of possible answers to choose from. It's not surprising that insiders to a tradition will choose different answers than will outsiders to that tradition. As I said before, there are a number of "contradictions" in the Qur'an, to which Muslims will provide explanations that work for them as "insiders," but which may not work as well for "outsiders."

...the hebrew manuscripts which the english bible is derived from still stand, and the contradictions are undeniable and thus the Bible is not Holy...

What we see here is a matter for the forensic science of textual criticism. There is no contradiction as far as insiders to the biblical tradition are concerned. We do not feel that the deletion of a single digit from a huge and ancient text diminishes the "holiness" of the Bible any more than Muslims believe that the differences of a few verbs, adjectives, and pronouns diminishes the "holiness" of the Qur'an.

At any rate, I demonstrated how Christians deal with alleged "contradictions." We are satisfied with the texts and with our explanations, just as Muslims are satisfied with their Qur'anic texts and with their explanations of alleged "contradiction" in those texts.

So, are you ready to begin discussing other things now?