Question about Trinity

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:11 pm

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

ThatGirlAgain · Post by **ThatGirlAgain** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:12 pm

McCulloch wrote:How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

In Catholic theology, Jesus is the Son of the Father in two senses:

In the first sense, God fathered Jesus in Mary's womb. Yes, I know Matthew and Luke say the Holy Spirit did it. The Holy Spirit is the agency of God the Father. Shut up. Don't ask things like that. It's a mystery.

The second sense is even harder to grasp. God (the Father) understands himself fully. God the Son IS this understanding, the Logos or Wisdom of God. Since God is eternal, this understanding is eternal. The Son was therefore not made as a creature would be but ia eternally begotten, as the Nicene Creed puts it. Don't get it? Another mystery. I already told you to shut up. That Girl...

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:41 pm

Thank you, but I'm not quite sure that helps any.

ThatGirlAgain wrote: In the first sense, God fathered Jesus in Mary's womb. Yes, I know Matthew and Luke say the Holy Spirit did it. The Holy Spirit is the agency of God the Father.

The One God consists of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Luke says that the Holy Spirit fathered the Son's earthly incarnation. So the Holy Spirit which you call the agency of God the Father, did the actual fathering.

ThatGirlAgain wrote: The second sense is even harder to grasp.

You might make me regret asking if the second is harder to grasp than what you've just tried to explain!

ThatGirlAgain wrote: God (the Father) understands himself fully. God the Son IS this understanding, the Logos or Wisdom of God. Since God is eternal, this understanding is eternal.

One's understanding is not a separate thing, it is an abstraction. How can a person's understanding be the same as one's son?

ThatGirlAgain wrote: The Son was therefore not made as a creature would be but is eternally begotten, as the Nicene Creed puts it.

Perhaps that is the crux of my question. How is it that begetting can be eternal? Let's look at the ordinary meaning of the root word beget.
beÂ·getâ€‚[bih-get]
verb (used with object), beÂ·got or (Archaic) beÂ·gat; beÂ·gotÂ·ten or beÂ·got; beÂ·getÂ·ting.

(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
to cause or create; produce as an effect: a belief that hate begets violence.

It seems to me that the whole concept of parenthood, begetting and fatherhood, is based on the biological reality that what begets precedes that which is begotten. By definition, that which is eternal cannot be preceded.

The whole concept of eternal begetting seem to be an attempt to make sense of what the Bible says in conjunction with what theology has come to mean. On one hand, the philosophers want to make Jesus is equal to God, but the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God. Sons are never equal to their fathers. Fathers always precede sons. This is consistent with patriarchal societies and biology. The nation of Israel was patriarchal.

ThatGirlAgain wrote: Shut up. Don't ask things like that. It's a mystery. Don't get it? Another mystery. I already told you to shut up. That Girl...

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:11 pm

McCulloch wrote:]
In the first sense, God fathered Jesus in Mary's womb. Yes, I know Matthew and Luke say the Holy Spirit did it. The Holy Spirit is the agency of God the Father.

That is a fairly big clue that Luke did not understand Aramaic or Hebrew. In those languages, the term 'Holy Spirit' is feminine, not masculine.

ThatGirlAgain · Post by **ThatGirlAgain** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:27 pm

Goat wrote:
McCulloch wrote:]
In the first sense, God fathered Jesus in Mary's womb. Yes, I know Matthew and Luke say the Holy Spirit did it. The Holy Spirit is the agency of God the Father.
That is a fairly big clue that Luke did not understand Aramaic or Hebrew. In those languages, the term 'Holy Spirit' is feminine, not masculine.

Luke did not originate the story. He got it from Matthew or from Matthew's hypothetical source. Jewish Matthew was more likely to know Hebrew but then he did write in Greek.

I do not know anything about Hebrew or Aramaic but I do know that in some languages most nouns have a gender for grammatical purposes that does not necessarily relate to a real life gender. In Latin, the only classical language I know anything about (very little), farmer is grammatically feminine but usually masculine in reality. Was the Holy Spirit conceived of as being actually feminine?

ThatGirlAgain · Post by **ThatGirlAgain** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:33 pm

McCulloch wrote: The whole concept of eternal begetting seem to be an attempt to make sense of what the Bible says in conjunction with what theology has come to mean. On one hand, the philosophers want to make Jesus is equal to God, but the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God. Sons are never equal to their fathers. Fathers always precede sons. This is consistent with patriarchal societies and biology. The nation of Israel was patriarchal.

Here and here are more than you ever wanted to know about Eternal Begetting.

riverslivnwtr · Post by **riverslivnwtr** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:58 am

Goat wrote:
McCulloch wrote:]
In the first sense, God fathered Jesus in Mary's womb. Yes, I know Matthew and Luke say the Holy Spirit did it. The Holy Spirit is the agency of God the Father.
That is a fairly big clue that Luke did not understand Aramaic or Hebrew. In those languages, the term 'Holy Spirit' is feminine, not masculine.

That could explain why the Holy Spirit is so sensitive....
My understanding is that he the Holy Spirit is the breath of God..

riverslivnwtr · Post by **riverslivnwtr** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:05 am

McCulloch wrote:How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

Jesus, the Word of God, always existed in Him.
The bible says, that God was in Christ reconciling he world unto himself..
The bible says that we are complete in him who is the head of all principality and power..
Psalm 68:11 says , by the word of the Lord were all the heavens made and all the hosts of them by the breath of his mouth..
In that one sentence you have all three forms of God in one person...

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:08 pm

McCulloch wrote: How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

riverslivnwtr wrote: In that one sentence you have all three forms of God in one person...

Are you a heretic? I thought that the proper expression was that there was on God in three persons, not three forms of God in one person.

riverslivnwtr · Post by **riverslivnwtr** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:29 pm

McCulloch wrote:
McCulloch wrote: How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

riverslivnwtr wrote: In that one sentence you have all three forms of God in one person...

Are you a heretic? I thought that the proper expression was that there was on God in three persons, not three forms of God in one person.

when you said you thought ...you missed it all..you are going by man's teachings and not accepting what is written by the prophets and apostles..
men always try to spin and even try define God..

I'm involved in a Debate right now about Joel Osteen who pastors a Church I used to attend in the 80's my first days as a Christian, where my foundation was built in Christ which cannot be shaken.... he is being attacked by those evangelicals who are in such (high holy order) for saying that Mormon's is just another form of Christianity...I wonder though if they would say that about a mullah in say Iran or Pakistan..

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