Question about Trinity

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

[Burninglight]

It is when one denies the call that true confusion and deception comes to replace the truth revealed to him or her. It is written; "Those that refuse the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie" This is what I believe has happened to many if not all Muslims and cult leaders such a Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses!

Or could it be that Orthodox Christianity is the strong delusion and one of the others is the truth. How do you distinguish?

It all depends on what you mean by "orthodox Chrisitanity" If you mean the Catholic Church then I agree with you, but if you speake of Biblical Christianity then you know that Muslims and JWs or Mormons don't match up if you read the Scriptures.

[Fides et Veritas]

The Trinity Doctrine is one of my favorite topics. So how nice is it to use it as my first post.

Ever notice that despite the use of Elohim the terms father and son really aren't used to describe God in the Old Testament?
The 'God' of the Old Testament is none other than the Spokesman. Until Christ the 'Father' did not interact with humanity. The Logos did all of this. It was him in teh form of Melchizedek and it was he that wrestled against Jacob. It was his voice that caused Adam and Eve to hide the nakedness and it was h e who directed Noah to build the Ark.

The Word is one of two (yes I said two) beings that make up the Godhead.
Think of it this way. You and your Father share the same last name. For the sake of simplicity we'll say your last name is Lee. You are both Lee yet not the same Lee. It is the same with God. There are two God Family members.

God is not a closed Triune entity. God is a family. An open family. Hence the reason that the New Testament plays such a strong focus on Family. Father Son, Sons of God, Bride, Husband, etc.

The Trinity Doctrine closes God off. It shuts us out of his eternal family. For so long this counterfeit belief has been passed off with the simple explanation that we can't understand such a great Mystery.
The trinity can not be proven Biblicaly. It can be hinted at and suggested. Verses can be twisted to mean things that they do not mean. If you take a half verse here and a quarter verse there, then combine them and turn them upside down... and.... wholla!!! We Have A TRINITY!!! WoooooHooooo!!

But.... now we have an issue. The God Family is now closed. God's far reaching power (the Holy Spirit) is now elevated to Godhood and made the third Deity in another borrowed pagan belief. The closest the Bible comes to the Trinity actually doesn't even belong in the Bible. That is I John 5:7. It was added in the first writing of the Vatican's Latin Vulgate Edition. It isn't in the original Manuscripts. And if you compare it to the rest of the book you will also notice that the language does not match up.

The point is the Trinity is a falsehood. It is a far reaching deception. But most are still willing to ignore any truth and just accept the traditions that they have always accepted. Its easier that way I know. I would probably do the same. Anyways, that is my two sense. And yes if asked I will happily break this down into bite sized pieces. Scripture references and all.


Thanks for reading and see you around the forum!!

[Wootah]

The Trinity Doctrine is one of my favorite topics. So how nice is it to use it as my first post.

Ever notice that despite the use of Elohim the terms father and son really aren't used to describe God in the Old Testament?
The 'God' of the Old Testament is none other than the Spokesman. Until Christ the 'Father' did not interact with humanity. The Logos did all of this. It was him in teh form of Melchizedek and it was he that wrestled against Jacob. It was his voice that caused Adam and Eve to hide the nakedness and it was h e who directed Noah to build the Ark.

The Word is one of two (yes I said two) beings that make up the Godhead.
Think of it this way. You and your Father share the same last name. For the sake of simplicity we'll say your last name is Lee. You are both Lee yet not the same Lee. It is the same with God. There are two God Family members.

God is not a closed Triune entity. God is a family. An open family. Hence the reason that the New Testament plays such a strong focus on Family. Father Son, Sons of God, Bride, Husband, etc.

The Trinity Doctrine closes God off. It shuts us out of his eternal family. For so long this counterfeit belief has been passed off with the simple explanation that we can't understand such a great Mystery.
The trinity can not be proven Biblicaly. It can be hinted at and suggested. Verses can be twisted to mean things that they do not mean. If you take a half verse here and a quarter verse there, then combine them and turn them upside down... and.... wholla!!! We Have A TRINITY!!! WoooooHooooo!!

But.... now we have an issue. The God Family is now closed. God's far reaching power (the Holy Spirit) is now elevated to Godhood and made the third Deity in another borrowed pagan belief. The closest the Bible comes to the Trinity actually doesn't even belong in the Bible. That is I John 5:7. It was added in the first writing of the Vatican's Latin Vulgate Edition. It isn't in the original Manuscripts. And if you compare it to the rest of the book you will also notice that the language does not match up.

The point is the Trinity is a falsehood. It is a far reaching deception. But most are still willing to ignore any truth and just accept the traditions that they have always accepted. Its easier that way I know. I would probably do the same. Anyways, that is my two sense. And yes if asked I will happily break this down into bite sized pieces. Scripture references and all.


Thanks for reading and see you around the forum!!

Welcome to the site. So your Godhead has two beings and you think 3 locks everyone out of God but not 2 or 1 or 5? What locks us out of God by God being a trinity?

[Fides et Veritas]

[quote="WootahWelcome to the site. So your Godhead has two beings and you think 3 locks everyone out of God but not 2 or 1 or 5? What locks us out of God by God being a trinity?[/quote]


Thank you for welcoming me!!
I am trying ti figure out how the quote thing works. So excuse of it doesn't!!

Basically there are two points I see that need addressed here.

Point one is that the Holy Spirit is not has never been a 'third personage'. Actually think this through and read your Bible. There is a massive emphasis on the father and son. But the Holy Spirit is left out of this. He isn't mentioned in John1:1-4 he isn't mentioned in at any point by Christ when he refers to who he is here working for, who is returning to, or who he represents. Why isn't he mentioned? Because he isn't a he, he's an it. It is God's (Father and Son) power, their spirit to use and wield to effect there awesome plan in our universe. It's how they open our minds by giving a small portion of their spirit to help us understand things on a higher level, It's how miracles happen, It is how the universe was created. It is how God can be omnipresent. All through this magnificent power known as the Holy Spirit.

The same people that preach the Trinity Doctrine are the same people that make a closed unit. They shut man out of his incredible birthright. They make it a Triune Godhead. What does Triune mean? (tri·une [trahy-yoon] adjective 1. three in one; constituting a trinity in unity, as the Godhead. noun 2.( initial capital letter ) the Trinity. ) It means Three. Not 1 or 2 or 3 or 10 or 356, or 5,903,678,752,841. It means Three. How can God build his family or except us into it if it is a closed of unit of Three? He can't.

1. Ask yourself this what, if you are saved and Born Again, are you going to be doing for eternity?
2. What will you be?
3. What is your purpose?
4. What is God's plan?
5. Why did he create man?

If you would please take the time to answer the above questions than I will be happy to continue to provide more insight. For I need to know what your expectations are and your limitations are concerning God and his plan for you.

Thanks and have a blessed day!

[gospelsaves]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

The bible is wonderful because it explains itself:
Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself

Jesus being GOD didn't consider that something to be used to his own advantage, rather he took on the form of a servant.....he took on the form of Humanity. THAT is why God the Father calls him Son. The bible makes that very clear.


Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire[a]
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.�
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain. �
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery. �

God (Father) is speaking to and about Jesus (Son) in this scripture. He didn't create Jesus, he calls him Son because of Jesus humility toward him. And he promises Jesus that he will make everything his inheritance.


God’s Final Word: His Son
Hebrews 1:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son�? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c

"become" is where they got that word begat, but it doesn't mean that God was saying he created Jesus. Instead he was saying "Today I CALL you my son, today I have BECOME your father".

That SAME scripture goes on to say:
“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.�[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.�[e]

God (father) calls the Son GOD in this verse. If that scripture isn's speaking of Jesus then who is it speaking about? Because the person talking first says "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�....then Says "Let all God’s angels worship him". Worship belongs to GOD and God alone. And then it says about the SON He (the person talking) says "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever". There is no transition word here to lead anyone to believe another person is talking. The writer is describing a conversation he overheard and says "HE says"...who is the "He"? It's God the Father.

[Burninglight]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

The bible is wonderful because it explains itself:
Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself

Jesus being GOD didn't consider that something to be used to his own advantage, rather he took on the form of a servant.....he took on the form of Humanity. THAT is why God the Father calls him Son. The bible makes that very clear.


Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire[a]
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.�
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain. �
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery. �

God (Father) is speaking to and about Jesus (Son) in this scripture. He didn't create Jesus, he calls him Son because of Jesus humility toward him. And he promises Jesus that he will make everything his inheritance.


God’s Final Word: His Son
Hebrews 1:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son�? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c

"become" is where they got that word begat, but it doesn't mean that God was saying he created Jesus. Instead he was saying "Today I CALL you my son, today I have BECOME your father".

That SAME scripture goes on to say:
“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.�[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.�[e]

God (father) calls the Son GOD in this verse. If that scripture isn's speaking of Jesus then who is it speaking about? Because the person talking first says "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�....then Says "Let all God’s angels worship him". Worship belongs to GOD and God alone. And then it says about the SON He (the person talking) says "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever". There is no transition word here to lead anyone to believe another person is talking. The writer is describing a conversation he overheard and says "HE says"...who is the "He"? It's God the Father.

This gives the Scriptural backing for what I have been telling Peace. I hope he reads these verses.
Jesus is awesome! He is the total spiritual sum of all things!

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

The bible is wonderful because it explains itself:
Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself

Jesus being GOD didn't consider that something to be used to his own advantage, rather he took on the form of a servant.....he took on the form of Humanity. THAT is why God the Father calls him Son. The bible makes that very clear.


Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire[a]
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.�
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain. �
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery. �

God (Father) is speaking to and about Jesus (Son) in this scripture. He didn't create Jesus, he calls him Son because of Jesus humility toward him. And he promises Jesus that he will make everything his inheritance.


God’s Final Word: His Son
Hebrews 1:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son�? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c

"become" is where they got that word begat, but it doesn't mean that God was saying he created Jesus. Instead he was saying "Today I CALL you my son, today I have BECOME your father".

That SAME scripture goes on to say:
“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.�[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.�[e]

God (father) calls the Son GOD in this verse. If that scripture isn's speaking of Jesus then who is it speaking about? Because the person talking first says "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�....then Says "Let all God’s angels worship him". Worship belongs to GOD and God alone. And then it says about the SON He (the person talking) says "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever". There is no transition word here to lead anyone to believe another person is talking. The writer is describing a conversation he overheard and says "HE says"...who is the "He"? It's God the Father.

[Yusef]

..Luke did not understand Aramaic or Hebrew.

The Imam Ali(a.s[God's peace be upon him]), one person asked him: Ya Ali, Which one of the disciples of Jesus(a.s) was wiser than the others? Marqos, Lugha, Yuhannah, Mattah,...
The Imam(a.s) anwered: Lugha[Luke] was wiser than others.

O' those who claim wisdom, Why you couldn't give me a logical/wisely/powerful reply to my questions in the thread of
!AN IMPORTANT QUESTION!
about the trinity??

[Goat]

..Luke did not understand Aramaic or Hebrew.

The Imam Ali(a.s[God's peace be upon him]), one person asked him: Ya Ali, Which one of the disciples of Jesus(a.s) was wiser than the others? Marqos, Lugha, Yuhannah, Mattah,...
The Imam(a.s) anwered: Lugha[Luke] was wiser than others.

O' those who claim wisdom, Why you couldn't give me a logical/wisely/powerful reply to my questions in the thread of
!AN IMPORTANT QUESTION!
about the trinity??

And, your evidence that Luke was wiser?? Can you support that>

In my opinion, the concept of the Trinity came about to try to resolve a contradiction in the idea 'there is one God', and "Jesus is God". I don't see it as logical or reasonable.

[tomcat3443]

The whole concept of eternal begetting seem to be an attempt to make sense of what the Bible says in conjunction with what theology has come to mean. On one hand, the philosophers want to make Jesus is equal to God, but the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God. Sons are never equal to their fathers. Fathers always precede sons. This is consistent with patriarchal societies and biology. The nation of Israel was patriarchal.

Here and here are more than you ever wanted to know about Eternal Begetting.

Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit (“Holy Ghost,� KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·ra′kle·tos; “Comforter,� KJ; “Advocate,� JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled� with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed� with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood.

The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.� But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.