Indoctrination into a Church

[MoonGodde§§1968]

How do churches indoctrinate new people into their Churches to convince them to become "Born Again"?

I am, an agnositic atheist as is my husband. His brother over the past couple of years has become very involved in a church, and he is now an insufferable Born Again Christian. This is very unlike who he was before he became involved in this church. He travelled 60 miles last week to tell his brother (my husband) that he would "go to hell" if he didn't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior...and become a Born Again Christian, as he is. He is "worried about" my husband's "soul". He wants to make sure my husband joins him in "Heaven". As you can imagine, this was not met with much interest. My brother in law then presumptiously stated, "I was once like you. I was searching and seeking answers". My husband, who is irritated at this point, stated to him that "what makes you think I am searching for anything? I am not searching. I am content with my beliefs (or, lack thereof, if you will)".

The conversations was tense, and although it ended on a civil note, it clearly wasn't satisfactory for either brother.

My question...what do these Churches do to so completely convert what was once a normal, rational, reasonable person, into a religious zealot? He is WEIRD...and almost glassy eyed. Downright strange. Do Churches seek out people that are easy to indoctrinate? how do they so completely transform a person? what methodology is used by modern-day churches. The church he attends is an evangelical, small church that he is taking "Life Groups"...and now TEACHING "Life Groups". He is so far gone, he is wanting to become an ordained minister for that church. I don't get it. I would like to understand how someone can be so susceptible to this. He now finds his church family to be more important than his real family, from his behavior and comments. Which, at this point is fine, because I wouldn't be nearly as kind if he started proselytyzing to me or my kids.

Any comments? answers? a way to deal with this?

Thanks, MoonGodde§§1968

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

How do churches indoctrinate new people into their Churches to convince them to become "Born Again"?

I am, an agnositic atheist as is my husband. His brother over the past couple of years has become very involved in a church, and he is now an insufferable Born Again Christian. This is very unlike who he was before he became involved in this church. He travelled 60 miles last week to tell his brother (my husband) that he would "go to hell" if he didn't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior...and become a Born Again Christian, as he is. He is "worried about" my husband's "soul". He wants to make sure my husband joins him in "Heaven". As you can imagine, this was not met with much interest. My brother in law then presumptiously stated, "I was once like you. I was searching and seeking answers". My husband, who is irritated at this point, stated to him that "what makes you think I am searching for anything? I am not searching. I am content with my beliefs (or, lack thereof, if you will)".

The conversations was tense, and although it ended on a civil note, it clearly wasn't satisfactory for either brother.

My question...what do these Churches do to so completely convert what was once a normal, rational, reasonable person, into a religious zealot? He is WEIRD...and almost glassy eyed. Downright strange. Do Churches seek out people that are easy to indoctrinate? how do they so completely transform a person? what methodology is used by modern-day churches. The church he attends is an evangelical, small church that he is taking "Life Groups"...and now TEACHING "Life Groups". He is so far gone, he is wanting to become an ordained minister for that church. I don't get it. I would like to understand how someone can be so susceptible to this. He now finds his church family to be more important than his real family, from his behavior and comments. Which, at this point is fine, because I wouldn't be nearly as kind if he started proselytyzing to me or my kids.

Any comments? answers? a way to deal with this?

Thanks, MoonGodde§§1968

The cause is usually emotion, or faulty logic.

I think that the only cure is a good dose of logic, injected directly into the somatic nervous system!

Basically, try to reason with him. Start a debate/argument, if he won't reason, well...you might have to shun him

[spayne]

How do churches indoctrinate new people into their Churches to convince them to become "Born Again"?

I am, an agnositic atheist as is my husband. His brother over the past couple of years has become very involved in a church, and he is now an insufferable Born Again Christian. This is very unlike who he was before he became involved in this church. He travelled 60 miles last week to tell his brother (my husband) that he would "go to hell" if he didn't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior...and become a Born Again Christian, as he is. He is "worried about" my husband's "soul". He wants to make sure my husband joins him in "Heaven". As you can imagine, this was not met with much interest. My brother in law then presumptiously stated, "I was once like you. I was searching and seeking answers". My husband, who is irritated at this point, stated to him that "what makes you think I am searching for anything? I am not searching. I am content with my beliefs (or, lack thereof, if you will)".

The conversations was tense, and although it ended on a civil note, it clearly wasn't satisfactory for either brother.

My question...what do these Churches do to so completely convert what was once a normal, rational, reasonable person, into a religious zealot? He is WEIRD...and almost glassy eyed. Downright strange. Do Churches seek out people that are easy to indoctrinate? how do they so completely transform a person? what methodology is used by modern-day churches. The church he attends is an evangelical, small church that he is taking "Life Groups"...and now TEACHING "Life Groups". He is so far gone, he is wanting to become an ordained minister for that church. I don't get it. I would like to understand how someone can be so susceptible to this. He now finds his church family to be more important than his real family, from his behavior and comments. Which, at this point is fine, because I wouldn't be nearly as kind if he started proselytyzing to me or my kids.

Any comments? answers? a way to deal with this?

Thanks, MoonGodde§§1968

I am curious as to why your brother in law is not allowed to pursue a life that makes him happy without incurring judgement from his own family members. If you really love him and want the best for him, who don't you join him at his church some Sunday and see for yourself what he has been up to? I think you will find that churches are literally filled with joy filled people who love others and are seeking to live morally upright, meaningful lives with a purpose, with God at the center. What is so bad about that?

[MoonGodde§§1968]

My brother-in-law is, in fact, free to pursue a life that makes him happy. HE is the one who drove 120 miles round trip to JUDGE my husband (his brother), our family, and even his parents (life-long Catholics), who he also JUDGES will be going to hell, as per his and his Church's beliefs. We did not go to him. We did not JUDGE him. We did not ask to be proseltyzed to. HE did not respect my husband's beliefs, when he knows full well what they are (not). I do not understand how you feel this is something we are doing to him. We respect his right to his religious beliefs. We did not ask for him to come down and tell us we are going to HELL if we do not believe as he does.

"If we really love him and want the best for him"...we must "join him at his church"? Why would we as non-believers be asked to do so? Would we ask him to go to a Free-thinkers meeting? He would see that it is literally filled with happy, well-adjusted people who love others and are seeking to live morally upright, meaningful lives with a purpose, with REASON and RATIONALITY at the center. What would be so bad about that? Nothing, other than we wouldn't disrespect his beliefs and would not expect him to believe as we do. We most certainly would never condemn a person for their beliefs.

His behavior, and behavior of other Born Again Christians that I have had to deal with (with the exception of one), has been so self-righteous and sanctimonious. So completely hypocritical it is very hard to take.

What has he accomplished by "spreading the Good News" other than to completely offend and distance his family. But, I am sure he feels otherwise. He likely presumes that as "God's Warrior", he will soldier on for Christ, never minding how his behavior affects others, or, how his behavior causes others to feel. As long as he is good with God and his church, I'm sure he figures he can do whatever he pleases and he is "saved".

I'm trying to be polite about it. I am struggling to understand how people think this behavior is alright?

I welcome feedback and thoughts and discussion.

Thanks for the responses I have received so far.

[spayne]

My brother-in-law is, in fact, free to pursue a life that makes him happy. HE is the one who drove 120 miles round trip to JUDGE my husband (his brother), our family, and even his parents (life-long Catholics), who he also JUDGES will be going to hell, as per his and his Church's beliefs. We did not go to him. We did not JUDGE him. We did not ask to be proseltyzed to. HE did not respect my husband's beliefs, when he knows full well what they are (not). I do not understand how you feel this is something we are doing to him. We respect his right to his religious beliefs. We did not ask for him to come down and tell us we are going to HELL if we do not believe as he does.

"If we really love him and want the best for him"...we must "join him at his church"? Why would we as non-believers be asked to do so? Would we ask him to go to a Free-thinkers meeting? He would see that it is literally filled with happy, well-adjusted people who love others and are seeking to live morally upright, meaningful lives with a purpose, with REASON and RATIONALITY at the center. What would be so bad about that? Nothing, other than we wouldn't disrespect his beliefs and would not expect him to believe as we do. We most certainly would never condemn a person for their beliefs.

His behavior, and behavior of other Born Again Christians that I have had to deal with (with the exception of one), has been so self-righteous and sanctimonious. So completely hypocritical it is very hard to take.

What has he accomplished by "spreading the Good News" other than to completely offend and distance his family. But, I am sure he feels otherwise. He likely presumes that as "God's Warrior", he will soldier on for Christ, never minding how his behavior affects others, or, how his behavior causes others to feel. As long as he is good with God and his church, I'm sure he figures he can do whatever he pleases and he is "saved".

I'm trying to be polite about it. I am struggling to understand how people think this behavior is alright?

I welcome feedback and thoughts and discussion.

Thanks for the responses I have received so far.

I wasn't trying to state that this is something that you are doing to your brother in law. I apologize if it came off that way. However, I would encourage you to not to frame this issue as something that he is doing to you, and not to take the attitude that he is judging you. I went through a similar situation during a period of time when I was an atheist. I ended up very offended at the family member (my Dad) who tried to witness to me (in a very similar manner from what happened your husband), and in the end it only created a lot of resentment and unforgivenss on my part. Now that I am a Christian, I can understand and even appreciate where he was coming from, even though he didn't choose the best method for approaching me.

As a Christian, I think I can offer you a translation of what might be happening (only knowing the situation from the surface). Your brother in law had an encounter with God that he led him to believe that God is real and that the Bible is true. In Christian circles, we meet people like this all of the time, and it is happening all over the world. There is a great deal of excitement when you are a new Christian. It's almost like that romantic giddy phase you experience when you are in a new relationship, but it's even better! I would guess that your brother in law has had this kind of revelation, and now he is eager to share this with the people in his life that he loves the most. But it's pretty difficult trying to find a way to present all of this information to people who do not believe in God, because there is this sense that they are either 1) not going to understand, or 2) not going to care. People stumble. They saw the wrong things. They do things for the wrong reasons. Your brother in law's methods, while they are obviously offensive and a bit suspect I will admit, actually come from a good place. I think it's important to recognize that.

I know it probably sounds weird to you as an atheist, but for the Christian, God is as real as the sun and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be consequences for rejecting him. Even if you don't believe that, your brother in law does. So you have several options as I see it:

1) Take the reactive approach by concluding that your brother in law is a nutjob and then avoid him, which will ultimately create a deep, long term divide in your relationship.

2) Taking the non-reactive approach by doing nothing, but then prepare yourself for future witnessing sessions, which will probably fan the fire of resentment you already feel.

3) Take the proactive approach. Instead of rejecting his beliefs, put aside your own convictions and consider his point of view. Instead of judging the church he attends, attend services with him one Sunday. Listen to his pastor. Meet some of his Christian friends. Go out to brunch afterwards and discuss the message, etc. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. The sin in this scenario could be resolved by family members who are willing to love at all cost, despite the wrongdoing involved.

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

I know it probably sounds weird to you as an atheist, but for the Christian, God is as real as the sun and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be consequences for rejecting him. Even if you don't believe that, your brother in law does...

3) Take the proactive approach. Instead of rejecting his beliefs, put aside your own convictions and consider his point of view. Instead of judging the church he attends, attend services with him one Sunday. Listen to his pastor. Meet some of his Christian friends. Go out to brunch afterwards and discuss the message, etc. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. The sin in this scenario could be resolved by family members who are willing to love at all cost, despite the wrongdoing involved.

I know it may sound weird, but we kind of don't believe in God(s). Not to mention the fact that we have heard it all before, most of us don't need an unnecessary re-run of the same old.

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to go to an atheist convention, but I'm sure you would support an atheist relative...yeah...right!?!

[spayne]

I know it probably sounds weird to you as an atheist, but for the Christian, God is as real as the sun and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be consequences for rejecting him. Even if you don't believe that, your brother in law does...

3) Take the proactive approach. Instead of rejecting his beliefs, put aside your own convictions and consider his point of view. Instead of judging the church he attends, attend services with him one Sunday. Listen to his pastor. Meet some of his Christian friends. Go out to brunch afterwards and discuss the message, etc. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. The sin in this scenario could be resolved by family members who are willing to love at all cost, despite the wrongdoing involved.

I know it may sound weird, but we kind of don't believe in God(s). Not to mention the fact that we have heard it all before, most of us don't need an unnecessary re-run of the same old.

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to go to an atheist convention, but I'm sure you would support an atheist relative...yeah...right!?!

I don't see this issue as "us vs. them" as you seem to Mr. Blackphilophy. I also wouldn't tell someone that they should "shun" another family member, as you did.

And yes, I would go to an atheist convention if one of my family members really wanted me to attend for some reason. What is the harm in that? What is the harm in going to church with and for someone you love?

[Goat]

I know it probably sounds weird to you as an atheist, but for the Christian, God is as real as the sun and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be consequences for rejecting him. Even if you don't believe that, your brother in law does...

3) Take the proactive approach. Instead of rejecting his beliefs, put aside your own convictions and consider his point of view. Instead of judging the church he attends, attend services with him one Sunday. Listen to his pastor. Meet some of his Christian friends. Go out to brunch afterwards and discuss the message, etc. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. The sin in this scenario could be resolved by family members who are willing to love at all cost, despite the wrongdoing involved.

I know it may sound weird, but we kind of don't believe in God(s). Not to mention the fact that we have heard it all before, most of us don't need an unnecessary re-run of the same old.

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to go to an atheist convention, but I'm sure you would support an atheist relative...yeah...right!?!

I don't see this issue as "us vs. them" as you seem to Mr. Blackphilophy. I also wouldn't tell someone that they should "shun" another family member, as you did.

And yes, I would go to an atheist convention if one of my family members really wanted me to attend for some reason. What is the harm in that? What is the harm in going to church with and for someone you love?

Why, you don't seem to see the issue. Suppose you had an atheist relative, or a relative that just converted to the Jehovhah Witnesses. Would you like them driving over just to give you a hard sell on 'there is no God', or attempting you to renounce the idea that Jesus is God, in a very aggressive way? Or, how about if the relative converted to Islam, and continually tried to give you a hard sell to convert to Islam?

Would you feel the same way?

[spayne]

I know it probably sounds weird to you as an atheist, but for the Christian, God is as real as the sun and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be consequences for rejecting him. Even if you don't believe that, your brother in law does...

3) Take the proactive approach. Instead of rejecting his beliefs, put aside your own convictions and consider his point of view. Instead of judging the church he attends, attend services with him one Sunday. Listen to his pastor. Meet some of his Christian friends. Go out to brunch afterwards and discuss the message, etc. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. The sin in this scenario could be resolved by family members who are willing to love at all cost, despite the wrongdoing involved.

I know it may sound weird, but we kind of don't believe in God(s). Not to mention the fact that we have heard it all before, most of us don't need an unnecessary re-run of the same old.

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to go to an atheist convention, but I'm sure you would support an atheist relative...yeah...right!?!

I don't see this issue as "us vs. them" as you seem to Mr. Blackphilophy. I also wouldn't tell someone that they should "shun" another family member, as you did.

And yes, I would go to an atheist convention if one of my family members really wanted me to attend for some reason. What is the harm in that? What is the harm in going to church with and for someone you love?

Why, you don't seem to see the issue. Suppose you had an atheist relative, or a relative that just converted to the Jehovhah Witnesses. Would you like them driving over just to give you a hard sell on 'there is no God', or attempting you to renounce the idea that Jesus is God, in a very aggressive way? Or, how about if the relative converted to Islam, and continually tried to give you a hard sell to convert to Islam?

Would you feel the same way?

Yes, as long as the person didn't get violent or extremely disrespectful to the point of a personal attack. I don't see this as a You vs. Me issue, but rather an opportunity to love another person unconditionally, which is what I am called to do as a Christian.

[JehovahsWitness]

How do churches indoctrinate new people into their Churches to convince them to become "Born Again"?

Any comments? answers? a way to deal with this?

Thanks, MoonGodde§§1968

Well, I cannot comment about your personal family situtation, perhaps the members of your family have a mental illness or a predisposition to psychosis, that would be for a trained mental health professional to access. I would add however, that that that was a very disrespectful and bias way of asking for information and gives evidence of a most intolerant and bigotted attitude.

"Indoctrination" is a word with heavily negative connotations and someone inviting polite exchange without a personal axe to grind would surely be able to find a respectful althernative. Generalizing from the particular (your family member) to the general is much like concluding all black people are muggers becaues you were mugged by a black man, and then asking "How do you black people get your folk to mug people?" Since you asked for comment general comments, mine would be not to generalize.

Thank you for inviting my comments, I hope mine were of use to you.

JW