Can we really go to heaven?

[Mr. Splib]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

[Jon Hall]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

Where do Christian ideas of Lucifer come from?

Christians (at least most mainstream kinds) view the Bible as God's revelation of himself to men and women. There are many great books that contain truth and wisdom of various kinds, but we accept the Bible as the only book that carries God's own authority.

Within the Bible, we distinguish between truths that are stated clearly and unambiguously (such as "God is love" - 1Jn 4:8) and ideas that are not stated clearly, but can be surmised from what is taught. These ideas are a "best guess" - on our better days Christians acknowledge that there might be different ways of putting the pieces together, and we do well not to cling too tightly to our own ways of understanding what is written.

The Bible is clear that humans have a real spiritual enemy. His most common name is Satan, lit. "deceiver". Jesus met him personally (Mk 1:13) and taught that he had once witnessed him "fall like lightning" (Lk 10:18). The apostle Peter warned Christians about him: "Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour" (1Pe 5:8).

Other than his existence and malicious intent, we are not explicitly taught much about the enemy. There is no "history of Satan" book in the Bible. He appears in several of the visions of Revelation. Most illuminatingly, John makes clear in one of his visions of a dragon that his identity is "that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan" (Rev 12:9). It is in this vision that the dragon's tail sweeps down a third of the stars from heaven (Rev 12:4). The most common interpretation of this vision is that one third of the angels of God followed Satan - that's where Milton got the idea from. It seems a decent interpretation of what John saw, but it's only an interpretation, and it might be wrong.

John called the dragon "that ancient serpent". This is surely a reference to the serpent that deceived Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. He crops up from time to time in the pages of the Old Testament, most notably at the beginning of Job. A mysterious vision of Ezekiel regarding the "King of Tyre" is often applied to Satan (Ez 28:11ff). If this interpretation is correct, then Satan was created by God to be a guardian cherub (v.14) but became proud because of his own beauty (v.17). Again, this is only a "best guess", but it seems to me a good one.

Paul wrote that "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2Cor 11:14), which is where I suspect he earned the name "Lucifer".

[Ooberman]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

You've come across one of the many contradictions in Christianity.

(Much like: If you are in Heaven, and some loved ones are in Hell, is that really Heaven for you? How do you worship and Love God if you know he is roasting your best friend and father or mother in Hell?)

There are so many of these problems in Christianity - any religion - because the men who wrote the books had no idea of the level of scrutiny their books would go through. They had no idea their writings were going to be considered "the perfect word of God". (even metaphorically, etc.)

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to post 1 by Mr. Splib]

First, a bit of discussion on the backstory of heaven. The secular notion of heaven is influenced by many religions, by theatrical representations (limited by the stage and imagination) and by personal attitudes or opinion (not necessarily founded on anything except one's own fantasy).

In eastern religions there generally isn't anything of a corporeal or spiritual heaven. The spiritual essence of humanity just kind of floats along, sometimes being restored to a new life on earth and sometimes not. (The basic logical problem with reincarnation is that it's chancy. One does not always get to be reborn human if one lives at all.)

In the major religions, the concept of heaven or heavens is not held in agreement.
Islam states that there are 7 heavens.
Judaism created the pattern of 3, reaffirmed by the writings of the New Testament apostles.

Only secular sources claim there is one heaven where good people party at the end of life. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Heaven is IN, not UP.

According to the Holy Bible, the first heaven is here - planet earth and what we call physical life. In actuality, there is little or no difference between physical life and spiritual life.

C.S. Lewis said that mankind is a sort of spiritual amphibian, living at once in both worlds.

The second heaven is the temporary abode of demonic spirits, disembodied human spirits (spirits of the dead). It is the spiritual throne of satan. This is the place people 'see' when they have near death experiences. It is the light at the end of the tunnel you've read about.

When the saints of God die, some of them testify as to being escorted by angels to the third heaven. Angelic escorts are necessary because the second heaven is a sort of spiritual ghetto. Neither is it the place of final judgment - or hell as it has come to be called. Hell is a lack of 'place' entirely.

The third heaven is the place where the throne of God rests. It is the place where God Almighty commands all things both living and dead. It is the place of ultimate revelation, authority and worship. It is the place where Jesus Christ now lives until He returns again to the earth to establish political power.

Your point is that people have to become completely different in heaven?

"Truly truly I say to you that unless you are born again you shall not see the Kingdom of God."
- Jesus

And that, dear reader, must happen HERE in this heaven called earth and time and life.

Unless a man makes peace with God here and now, he shall not enjoy the benefits of God's good pleasure after life, but shall suffer the eternal torment of being removed from God's presence completely. No heaven at all; three, two or one.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to post 13 by richardP]

An addendum on my previous post regarding the divisions and occupants between the first and second heavens. I made a navigational error of sorts - meaning that I wrote too fast and didn't proofread my text well enough. My apologies to all.

The first heaven -earth- is the abode of demonic spirits & disembodied human spirits, the same location that we call physical earth. The book of Job describes satan walking around on the earth. Jesus said that He saw satan fall like lightning to the earth and the book of Revelation [12:9] has a more expanded description of the war in heaven. Revelation 2:12-13 states that the city of Pergamum, Turkey is the throne of satan on earth.(*)

Near death experiences seem to fall into two general categories, which I've not the time to get into here. Suffice it to say that the experience of 'heaven' by those who've had it is of the first heaven - the spiritual side of earth. The veil, as they say, is taken away and the other side of reality is visible - but always in a limited way and for a limited amount of time and of a limited description.

For those who wish to delve more deeply into the design and purpose of the three divisions of heaven, I invite to explore the old testament pattern of the desert tabernacle used by the Hebrews in their worship of God. The pattern is in three distinct layers and was duplicated in the stone temples of Solomon & Herod. It's a pattern of spiritual heavens (3).

Finally, I wish to apologize if I've led anyone to a mistaken conclusion and hope that the above will correct any misconceptions.

it's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Oddly the facade of the temple in Pergamum was duplicated by Hitler in pre-war Berlin, Germany and was a part of the dictator's redesign of the city architecture. The edifice was never damaged when the war swept through and is open to visitors to this day. End time prophecies suggest that much of the politicking and posturing that will precede great violence and troubles will come from the nation where this throne sits (Turkey). Watch Turkey as events in the Middle East unfold.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 1 by Mr. Splib]
Can we really go to heaven?

Jesus told His Disciples.
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

That sounds like "heaven" to me so the answer is yes.
We can go to there.

[mchristos606]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?



My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Actually , the priest was correct when stating that Heaven is pure. Heaven is the : " ONE and ONLY " pure spiritual reality. You actually didn't detect a " flaw " but you made certain assumptions due to you not having enough information.

After death , no person EVER goes to Heaven. Only perfect or " perfected " beings can enter Heaven. If every Dick and Harry entered Heaven after death then Heaven wouldn't be any different than Earth.


FYI...Interposed between the time-space physical reality and the pure spiritual reality called Heaven , is the time-space " SEMI-SPIRITUAL reality . This semi-spiritual reality extends from just above physical , in gradations , to almost pure Heaven. In your ascension towards God , you must traverse and " conquer " ( grow in Spirit ) all these different levels.

The Biblical description of " wars in Heaven " is completely inaccurate because such a thing is impossible to happen in Heaven . However , because time-space realities are NOT perfect in nature , errors and confusion do happen even in semi-spiritual reality. That is where Lucifer , Satan , and TheDevil rebelled against Christ.

[Ooberman]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

Sadly, religions are made by people, and prone to human error. When a loved one dies it's a common desire to think they are in a "better place", but in reality we all know this is happy talk.

It always sounds so hollow to me. The pastor might as well have said, "He's now in the matrix, and he is now pure energy and happy.."

It's BS, but culturally acceptable BS because most people don't have the will or capacity to think about mortality.


I am truly sorry for you about your friend. Don't let a bunch of ignorant religious wackos ruin your memory of him. It's not worth it.

I say this because too often religious people think they have the right thing to say in moments like that, when in fact they have hollow promises.

[we-live-now]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

Hey Mr Splib,

First of all, I love how you said a pastor's message "turned on a light" for me. This is a HUGE thing to pay attention to and I applaud you for seeking after this. I believe this is God wanting to tell you something and I am very glad you are seeking.

Second, know there is a LOT of mis-information out there everywhere. Some of it is really close to us right now. There is an enemy called Satan out there who does NOT want you to know the truth and will throw all kinds of ridiculous garbage at you to try to confuse and distract you. But, don't worry because he's nothing compared to almighty God himself. God uses him as an "opposing force" to show us the opposite of himself so we will know how really GOOD God is. Without this negative (Evil) as a contrast, we wouldn't really know what good (God) is. The bible (which I believed to be completely true Word for word in the original language) says that "no one can come to Jesus unless the father (God) draws him". So, if someone is starting to be curious about heaven and how to get there, it's a GREAT THING! You are on an awesome track.

Next, I want to say the pastor's description of the gospel is not the complete truth. He said that "Those who accept Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away and enter heaven pure..." This is not what the bible teaches! The true gospel of the bible teaches that all the forgiveness of ALL SINS FOR ALL TIME IS ALREADY DONE! It teaches us that Jesus was sent to earth by father God to save the entire world. See John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Contrary to what many teach (that isn't biblical) Jesus goal when he was sent here was to save everyone - the entire world. There are MANY other verses that say the same thing that he came to save the entire world. So, save them from what you ask? Their sins, which you already know results in death according to Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death". You will probably have a LOT of hellfire bible teachers tell you about that one. The problem is that they never follow it up with the REST of the verse that says "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." So, the whole verse says "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Do you see that? It's very important that you see that there is a FREE GIFT of eternal life waiting for anyone who wants it. I believe that the bible says that everyone will eventually accept the free gift, but for now if you accept it in THIS LIFE God has a special purpose for you.

See, this is what the bible says. God loves all of humanity so much that he sent his only begotten son to earth as a man to be a ONE TIME holy and perfect sacrifice for ALL sins that will ever be committed in a human body FOR ALL TIME! This applies to everyone whether you believe or don't believe - your entire lifetime of sins has been paid for by Jesus. Here are some verses to show you this is true:

" and He Himself is the propitiation (payment) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." John 6:39

"Jesus said to them, My food (nourishment) is to do the will (pleasure) of Him Who sent Me and to accomplish and completely finish His work." John 4:34

"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" Ephesians 1:13

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9


So, as you can see Christ's death paid for EVERY sin that ALL of humanity will ever commit. It was a one time perfect sacrifice or payment for all sins for all time. In God's eyes ALL the world is forgiven only the world does not know it! Also, no one can receive or benefit from this unless they believe it. So, I urge you today to ask God to help you believe it it so you can receive this wonderful GIFT! Once you believe it you are immediately changed into a new (Spiritual) creation according to the bible. You become "born again of God". Your real (immaterial) being of Soul and Spirit is then immediately sanctified which means completely perfect and sinless! In God's eyes, you will never sin again once you accept the free gift. At that point your real being of soul and spirit are cut away from your body and placed into Christ himself who is Spirit. Also, the Spirit of Christ immediately comes inside you and you being your NEW life in him. All your sins you will ever see in your life from that point on are confined to your body only and not attached to the real you of soul and spirit. Check this out, it's awesome!

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6

Once the conversion takes place, you are as perfect, righteous, holy and sinless as you will EVER be because the eternal Spirit of Christ himself will come inside you and become one with your Spirit. You will immediately become perfect and eternal because you are "in him" and he is "in you". You can't get any closer to God than perfect union with his Spirit inside you. This is not experienced perfectly while we are still in these fallen (sinful) bodies. However, once your body dies you will immediately SEE the true spirit realm where you now reside in Christ. Also, all the sin and encumbrances of these (dying) bodies will be gone forever. It will be AWESOME! The bible says once you believe you are actually "seated with Christ in the Heavens" at that moment. And this can happen TODAY! Once this occurs, all sin is confined and quarantined to your physical body and not attached to you in any way. It will finally be fully disposed of when your body dies, but YOU WILL NEVER DIE and will continue to be with God forever in heaven.

Btw, they were right when they said Heaven is going to be EARTH itself! But, don't worry, God is going to totally destroy and rebuild the Earth and it will have no SIN and the entire curse on the earth that causes death, decay and disease will be gone forever! It will be perfect like was originally planned. Heaven will be on Earth and so will God forever.

The best news is NONE OF THIS can ever be reversed no matter what. It was all done by God himself and there is nothing man can do to undo it. Eventually, when your body "falls off" you will see the new perfected you but until that time know that is how God see's you. However, for now the perfected you is still confined to a fallen (sin filled) body.

So, a proper summary to replace the Pastor's is "God sent his only begotten son Jesus into the world to pay for the sins of the whole world. Now, just receive this amazing free gift and learn more about who you now are!" That's the REAL Gospel!

Why wait? I'd search this out IMMEDIATELY TODAY! Ask God to show you if this is true and check out the site I put a link for you below. He'll show you!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ASB;AMP;GW

God bless,

we-live-now

[ttruscott]

...

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves.

Your body will change to a spirit body, like Christ's. 1 Corinthians 15:44 ...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But you will be recognizably you.

It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are.

No, it is only sin that makes us impure. We are capable of having only morally pure thoughts, emotions and desires. GOD is pure and GOD loves and hates. The angels in heaven with HIM have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness and the fallen angels have pride and anger
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires as per 1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44.

Emotion is not evil in itself but becomes evil when it is intended to serve evil.

All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure.

The only thing that must be wiped away is our addiction to sin as per Psalm 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. and Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and our tears, Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes.

What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven.

The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

Your point is wrong. You have been deceived.

Peace, Ted

[Goat]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

Where do Christian ideas of Lucifer come from?

Christians (at least most mainstream kinds) view the Bible as God's revelation of himself to men and women. There are many great books that contain truth and wisdom of various kinds, but we accept the Bible as the only book that carries God's own authority.

Within the Bible, we distinguish between truths that are stated clearly and unambiguously (such as "God is love" - 1Jn 4:8) and ideas that are not stated clearly, but can be surmised from what is taught. These ideas are a "best guess" - on our better days Christians acknowledge that there might be different ways of putting the pieces together, and we do well not to cling too tightly to our own ways of understanding what is written.

The Bible is clear that humans have a real spiritual enemy. His most common name is Satan, lit. "deceiver". Jesus met him personally (Mk 1:13) and taught that he had once witnessed him "fall like lightning" (Lk 10:18). The apostle Peter warned Christians about him: "Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour" (1Pe 5:8).

Other than his existence and malicious intent, we are not explicitly taught much about the enemy. There is no "history of Satan" book in the Bible. He appears in several of the visions of Revelation. Most illuminatingly, John makes clear in one of his visions of a dragon that his identity is "that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan" (Rev 12:9). It is in this vision that the dragon's tail sweeps down a third of the stars from heaven (Rev 12:4). The most common interpretation of this vision is that one third of the angels of God followed Satan - that's where Milton got the idea from. It seems a decent interpretation of what John saw, but it's only an interpretation, and it might be wrong.

John called the dragon "that ancient serpent". This is surely a reference to the serpent that deceived Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. He crops up from time to time in the pages of the Old Testament, most notably at the beginning of Job. A mysterious vision of Ezekiel regarding the "King of Tyre" is often applied to Satan (Ez 28:11ff). If this interpretation is correct, then Satan was created by God to be a guardian cherub (v.14) but became proud because of his own beauty (v.17). Again, this is only a "best guess", but it seems to me a good one.

Paul wrote that "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2Cor 11:14), which is where I suspect he earned the name "Lucifer".

Just pointing out, "That ancient serpent", when read in context, is a better match for the Levathian, not the snake in Genesis.