Mormons, the Trinity, and YHWH

[Kuan]

[Replying to post 492 by mormon boy51]

Since I do not know much about Mormonism, if you believe the first command the Shema, do you also affirm that YHWH Elohim is the One True God, and stands alone next to no other?

Or are Mormons also trinitarian? Sorry for getting off the OP.

Glad to answer. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, but we believe in the godhead. To use they are 3 separate beings united in one purpose.

We believe God the father has a body, and so does Jesus Christ. But the holy ghost is a spirit personage.

To us, Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
Elohim is God the father.

I figure you might have questions, please ask or debate away!

[pokeegeorge]

[Replying to mormon boy51]

Jesus never referred to himself as YHWH. Neither is there any reference to Jesus as YHWH anywhere.

Jesus is referred to as 'elohim' by Thomas in Jn 20:28 so wrong again.

Two wongs don't make a white. Ancient Chinese proverb. Or joke, I forgot which.

[Kuan]

Jesus never stated clearly that he was Jehovah, yes, but there are verses supporting that viewpoint.

Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

Col 1:14-16 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jehovah is the creator, and by these verses it can be inferred that Jesus was that creator.

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
The I am used here is similar to the I am in the OT in Exodus 3:14. Basicaly, Jesus saying he is Jehovah, hence why he was chased out, because that was blasphemy to them. (Up to debate though, considering the difficulties of translation and getting the original meaning after centuries of corruption, modification, and translation, or transliteration. Its the worlds largest and longest game of telephone!)

Jesus claimed to be the first and the last. Rev 1:17-18; 2:8; 22:13,16. But Jehovah is the first and the last. Isa 41:4; 44:6; 48:12,17.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, Jehovah is translated in the KJV to lord.

And the prophecies about Jehovah can be applied to Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

All 4 gospels (Mt 3:1-3; Mk 1:2-4; Lk 3:2-4; Jn 1:19-23) state this verse as applying to Jesus Christ and the Lord used in this is clearly from Jehovah. So John prepared the way for Jehovah, Jesus Christ.

Zec 12:8-10 "In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

They will look upon the lord whom they pierced and mourn. They will look upon the lord (Jehovah) whom they have pierced (Jesus) and mourn.

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."

Rom. 10:13 "For 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Suffficient for me to accept that Jesus is Jehovah.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I dont get how thomas referred to him as Elohim here, unless your translating god to elohim which would be incorrect since elohim is the plural version, if anything it would be El the singular version. But I could translate the lord and that would be jehovah also, which would be confusing since the previous verses show Jesus is Jehovah, is it possible that this verse refers to Jesus as a god but not THE god? Yes.

[Nickman]

Jesus never stated clearly that he was Jehovah, yes, but there are verses supporting that viewpoint.

Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

Col 1:14-16 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jehovah is the creator, and by these verses it can be inferred that Jesus was that creator.

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
The I am used here is similar to the I am in the OT in Exodus 3:14. Basicaly, Jesus saying he is Jehovah, hence why he was chased out, because that was blasphemy to them. (Up to debate though, considering the difficulties of translation and getting the original meaning after centuries of corruption, modification, and translation, or transliteration. Its the worlds largest and longest game of telephone!)

Jesus claimed to be the first and the last. Rev 1:17-18; 2:8; 22:13,16. But Jehovah is the first and the last. Isa 41:4; 44:6; 48:12,17.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, Jehovah is translated in the KJV to lord.

And the prophecies about Jehovah can be applied to Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

All 4 gospels (Mt 3:1-3; Mk 1:2-4; Lk 3:2-4; Jn 1:19-23) state this verse as applying to Jesus Christ and the Lord used in this is clearly from Jehovah. So John prepared the way for Jehovah, Jesus Christ.

Zec 12:8-10 "In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

They will look upon the lord whom they pierced and mourn. They will look upon the lord (Jehovah) whom they have pierced (Jesus) and mourn.

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."

Rom. 10:13 "For 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Suffficient for me to accept that Jesus is Jehovah.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I dont get how thomas referred to him as Elohim here, unless your translating god to elohim which would be incorrect since elohim is the plural version, if anything it would be El the singular version. But I could translate the lord and that would be jehovah also, which would be confusing since the previous verses show Jesus is Jehovah, is it possible that this verse refers to Jesus as a god but not THE god? Yes.

Philo's Logos
This concept has to do with the Logos, IMO. Here is a wiki link just for a basic overview. See how close Philo's idea of this preexisting concept is later echoed in the NT writings. He preceeded the authors of Christianity by some years. It is remarkable especially when you look at John's Gospel. It seems that the Gospel writers and other NT writers used this Greek concept and put a Jewish twist on it. Look up Philo even more for confirmation.

Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates "Logos". This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the "dividing Logos" (λόγος τομε�ς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts ("Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the "idea of ideas" and the "archetypal idea". [13]

There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isaiah 55:11; [14] these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos "second god [deuteros theos]" (Questions and Answers on Genesis 2:62), the "archangel of many names," "taxiarch" (corps-commander), the "name of God," also the "heavenly Adam", [15] the "man, the word of the eternal God."

The Logos is also designated as "high priest", in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: κέτης, [16] and πα�άκλητος. [17]

From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

Relation of the Logos to God [ edit source | edit beta ]

Philo's conception of the Logos is directly related to the Middle Platonic view of God as unmoved and utterly transcendent. As such, the Logos becomes the aspect of the divine that operates in the world—through whom the world is created and sustained. [18] Philo, in connecting his doctrine of the Logos with Scripture, first of all bases on Gen. i. 27 the relation of the Logos to God. He translates this passage as follows: "He made man after the image of God," concluding therefrom that an image of God existed. This image of God is the type for all other things (the "Archetypal Idea" of Plato), a seal impressed upon things. The Logos is a kind of shadow cast by God, having the outlines but not the blinding light of the Divine Being.

[Kuan]

[Replying to post 4 by Nickman]

I would agree, there does seem to be an influence, some similarities also. But to be honest, im not all that smart and a lot of that went over my head

Which is what the trinity does to me also, , I guess they are related!

But I didnt have qualty time to study it yet, too busy at the BYU game! Go cougs! And Utah! Great routing too, and USU, you guys rocked, (Chuckie Keeton rocks most!)

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Kuan]

If Jesus is Jehovah as you say, who's name is Jesus hallowing in the Lord's prayer? The Father has no name of his own? Is Jesus hallowing himself?