Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Strider324
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Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by Strider324 »

I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.

Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?

What specific scripture supports your contention?
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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by Goat »

Strider324 wrote: I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.

Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?

What specific scripture supports your contention?

What is meant by 'Fulfilled' in that context too?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Strider324
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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by Strider324 »

Goat wrote:
Strider324 wrote: I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.

Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?

What specific scripture supports your contention?

What is meant by 'Fulfilled' in that context too?
That too..... can't seem to get a coherent answer on this either.

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Post by bluethread »

Given the use of the term "fulfilled" in relation to passages that do not deal with commandments, it can not mean completed, but must mean fully exemplified what was being spoken of.

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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

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Post by Ooberman »

Strider324 wrote:
Goat wrote:
Strider324 wrote: I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.

Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?

What specific scripture supports your contention?

What is meant by 'Fulfilled' in that context too?
That too..... can't seem to get a coherent answer on this either.

I've always though of the apologetic "Jesus didn't overturn the law but fulfilled it" as a weasel term to make it sound like an explanation, but really isn't one.

It's the same animal as the apologetic for the Euthyphro D: It's an answer, but a meaningless one that side-steps the problem.
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Post by Strider324 »

bluethread wrote: Given the use of the term "fulfilled" in relation to passages that do not deal with commandments, it can not mean completed, but must mean fully exemplified what was being spoken of.
Cool, so in what manner did Jesus 'fully exemplify what was being spoken of' regarding the commandments not to murder, not to rape, not to commit the sin of having sex with another man, not to plant different crops together - or indeed the other 609 commandments delineated in the OT?
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Post #7

Post by bluethread »

Strider324 wrote:
bluethread wrote: Given the use of the term "fulfilled" in relation to passages that do not deal with commandments, it can not mean completed, but must mean fully exemplified what was being spoken of.
Cool, so in what manner did Jesus 'fully exemplify what was being spoken of' regarding the commandments not to murder, not to rape, not to commit the sin of having sex with another man, not to plant different crops together - or indeed the other 609 commandments delineated in the OT?
Well, let's look at the ones you specifically listed.

Not to murder. - Mt. 5:21-22 "Ye have heard that it was said by them (scribes and Pharisees) of old time, Thou shalt not kill ; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say , Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Not to rape - There is no direct commandment in the Tanakh regarding that. However, there are examples that show it to be wrong due to the fact that it disrespects women. In every encounter with a woman, Yeshua shows them respect equal to or greater than to men.

not to commit the sin of having sex with another man - We have no record of Yeshua doing such a thing. Moreover, we see Yeshua showing nonsexual affection toward other men. Thus showing that affection is not wrong, but homosexuality is.

not to plant different crops together - He speaks of the principle in speaking of patching a garment and wineskins. Mk. 2;21-22 "No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old coat; if he does, the new patch tears away from the old cloth and leaves a worse hole. And no one puts new wine in old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the skins will be ruined. Rather, new wine is for freshly prepared wineskins."

That last one could be a bit of a stretch, but the point isn't that we have perfect examples of Yeshua clarifying every commandment. The point is that whatever He did or spoke touching any commandment was not to destroy the law, or the prophets but to fully exemplify them. The context is the light and the bushel basket. His was not extinguishing the light of the Tanakh, but letting it shine.

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Post #8

Post by Strider324 »

[Replying to post 7 by bluethread]

I appreciate you taking the time to offer a response, but it doesn't fully address my question.

If I take your meaning, then all of the OT commandments are still in force - consistent with what Jesus said about 'The Law' every time he was asked.

But here is the conversation I have had with christians almost every day for 40 years:

"Homosexuality is wrong."

"Why?"

"It says so in the bible."

"The bible also says a child should be stoned to death for being disobedient."

"No, Jesus 'fulfilled' all of that OT jewish stuff."

"What does that mean?"

"It means we no longer have to follow the OT commandments."

"So why follow the OT commandment against homosexuals?"

"Um... because that's in the NT."

"But if Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law, and the prohibition against homosexuals was part of the Law in the same way that stoning children was part of the Law - then WHY is the prohibition against homosexuals in the NT, while stoning children is not? Which of the 613 commandments were 'fulfilled' in the manner you suggest - meaning they are no longer applicable - and which were not?"

This is where the cogent answers from these christians always stop.
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi

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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?

Post #9

Post by charlo921 »

[Replying to post 1 by Strider324]

Christ became our Sabbath ie Rest.He brought in forgiveness doing away with ordinances which required death.other than that the law not ordinances remain its still unlawful to steal or cheat on your spouse.ordinances required a priest thats no longer needed ..hope that helps

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Post #10

Post by charlo921 »

[Replying to post 7 by bluethread]

Deuteronomy 22:25
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:...this is rape note the word force..this is Law and still stands.

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