Curiosity of Christians belief on...

Getting to know more about a specific belief

Moderator: Moderators

Numb2pencil
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:42 pm

Curiosity of Christians belief on...

Post #1

Post by Numb2pencil »

Hello. New member to this wonderful site. I've spent quite the time reading up on arguments and discussions throughout this site and came to a conclusion that a lot of people here are well educated and have great knowledge about the topics that they engage in. So, I figured I'd try to ask a question here.

I've heard from Christians that believing in a god other than theirs will result in horrible after life. I can see the point but I started to ponder about those who might have been born and led a life in which they have/had no knowledge about Christianity and the god they believe in. For extreme example, let's say that a boy was born in the Amazon forest. His environment and peers do not possess the bible or ever came upon a missionary who would have spread the knowledge about Christ in general. What happens to them? I've asked this question to a group of Christians and they came to a conclusion that the boy and his peers were doomed to be bound for hell after death. Now, do majority of Christians agree with this?

Wootah
Savant
Posts: 7954
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post #11

Post by Wootah »

Why save some and not others? is paralleled by Why elect some and not others? as election is the promise of heaven and salvation on earth is the fulfillment of the promise to heaven.
I don't believe in an elect, it has the same problem of God being evil. The elect are those who recognise and respond to Jesus's offer of salvation.
These free will decisions separated all of HIS creation into the elect who put their faith in HIM and the reprobate who rejected HIM as GOD for a faith in something else.
Ahh - so it is self salvation.

Also why won't some of the reprobates or non reprobates sin and require another earth at some time in the future?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Edit preferences to remove all the fluff: ucp.php?i=ucp_prefs&mode=view

Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1320
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Post #12

Post by Overcomer »

Bottom line: God doesn't make mistakes. He knows who has a heart for him and who hasn't. He will make sure that the person who wants to know him will get the opportunity to do just that.

For those who will always have hard hearts toward him, it wouldn't matter if Jesus himself appeared to them. They will always find a reason to reject him and disbelieve.

So nobody needs to worry about a boy living in the Amazon rainforest or anywhere else in the world.

Jashwell
Guru
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:05 am
Location: United Kingdom

Post #13

Post by Jashwell »

[Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]

Do people who have a heart for him do so from birth (or from the inception of their soul for those who believe it precedes creation), or can one lose heart for him?

If so, does killing children at younger ages improve their chances of salvation?

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Curiosity of Christians belief on...

Post #14

Post by ttruscott »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]
The philosophical issue I have with your beliefs that we rejected or accepted God before creation is that you are claiming responsibility for your salvation. It is antithetical to the gospel of grace.
Before I was a sinner, did I have a need for grace? Did Christ have to die? Of course not, there was no sin at all yet.

When I am a sinner, can I save myself from my addiction to evil? Can I save myself from HIS righteous retribution on my evil? Not a bit - I am only saved from my sin by HIS grace through faith.

Are the angels under grace? Why should they be, they haven't sinned. Are they elect? Yes they are: 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels. So election does not go against grace at all, since grace is only necessary for the elect who chose to be sinful in HIS sight and then it is absolutely necessary.
Wootah wrote:
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[g] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:21-23 clearly states we are reconciled by Jesus and made blameless so long as we remain faithful. It is clear that what we do in this life matters and that the bible is rejecting your view.
PCE is not the only theology that interprets verses like this one as not referring to the possibility of our election being denied but rather to the non-continuing in faith indicating that one is not elect.

I favour Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. as including my own resistance as well.

Please also consider: if my salvation rests upon my choice to continue in faith, how then is it by grace? Is it not then by me, my deciding to continue? Who is denying grace?
Wootah wrote:I think you are building a belief system on a rhetorical flourish of Paul's. Paul is well aware of the need to spread the good news and that it has not gone everywhere on earth. But in heaven I see no reason to doubt that everyone is aware of God's good news.
I use his rhetorical flourish to answer the question of how it can be claimed that the whole world, past and future is without excuse since it does suggest evidence to our pre-existence. I do not claim it proves our pre-existence.

But I do claim to have dozens of such hints of our pre-existence from scripture and am still looking for the verse that flat out denies the possibility.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #15

Post by ttruscott »

Jashwell wrote: [Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]

Do people who have a heart for him do so from birth (or from the inception of their soul for those who believe it precedes creation), or can one lose heart for him?

If so, does killing children at younger ages improve their chances of salvation?
I don't see how a person can have anything before their creation??

And yes, some churches do espouse that young children are innocent and will go to heaven if they die. It is in great favour since Roe v. Wade. I reject it on a number of theological grounds.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Wootah
Savant
Posts: 7954
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Curiosity of Christians belief on...

Post #16

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to ttruscott]
Are the angels under grace?
Yes - in the sense that they understand that all good things come from God.

No - in the sense that Jesus' death wasn't for them. But I bet they understood more clearly God's grace for them.
*Please also consider: if my salvation rests upon my choice to continue in faith, how then is it by grace? Is it not then by me, my deciding to continue? Who is denying grace?
I don't consider accepting Jesus sacrifice 'a work' in the sense that we did something. For instance suppose I built you a house and you accepted to live there - you can't claim you built the house.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

Looking for head to head debates, especially on contradictions or the Trinity. PM me your topic.

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Edit preferences to remove all the fluff: ucp.php?i=ucp_prefs&mode=view

this-gospel
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:46 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Curiosity of Christians belief on...

Post #17

Post by this-gospel »

[Replying to post 1 by Numb2pencil]

Hi! There is two ways we can answer this question.

1) Only a hypocrite would ask this question

Why? because we don't preach to people we see before us or care about the people around us but we 'pretend to care about someone who we assume is hidden from men and God. You can hide from men, but not from God.

As the scripture says in Matthew 12:37, you are only condemning yourself by asking this question.

2) Nothing is Impossible with God!


Praise the Lord!
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt 24:14)

http://www.whywontjesushealamputees.com/

http://www.this-gospel.com/

http://www.theostein.com/

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Post #18

Post by Zzyzx »

.
[Replying to post 15 by this-gospel]


Moderator Comment

Your post violates several Forum Rules and Guidelines. It is disrespectful / uncivil, it contributes nothing to debate, and it is preaching.

This would be a Warning rather than a comment if you were beyond being a newbie.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

JKHolman
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:09 am
Location: Whaleyville, VA

Post #19

Post by JKHolman »

Divine Insight wrote: This is a very complicated topic to be sure. There are many different views on this within Christendom itself.

I was born and raised as a Christian. The denomination I was born into was quite liberal on these sorts of issues. Not only did they believe that people who never heard of Jesus can still be "saved", but they even believe that people who reject Christianity may still qualify for salvation. Our church was very non-judgmental about other people's relationship with God.

There are of course many denominations that seem to believe that God is an extremely strict monster and who will damn people for every little trivial reason. I never did buy into that view of God even when I was a Christian.

Technically there are arguments to be made that the God of Abraham as portrayed in the Bible actually only has to do with God's relationship with the Israelites and no one else. I believe the Jews in particular believed this. And ironically Jesus was a Jew. Even the Gospels have Jesus telling his own disciples not to go into the cities of the Gentiles and to leave the Gentiles alone. The hardcore Christianity fundamentalists who love to use the Biblical God for hatred proclaim that this simply means that the Gentiles are already damned and not worth wasting time on. Other more liberal Christians, and of course the Jews, simply feel that God has a different relationship with those other people and so it's just not the business of the Israelites to poke there nose into relationships they have nothing to do with.

So there are many different views on this issue.

I always point out another option that most people don't even seem to realize. I am no longer a Christian and I renounce the Bible as portraying a truly stupid and ignorant God. I therefore dismiss the entire bible and all Abrahamic religions as being false man-made myths that have no actual God behind them.

Surprisingly many Christians simply tell me that I have a totally wrong picture of the Biblical God. But actually that view exonerates me from having rejected the Biblical God. How so? Well, if what I am rejecting is actually a wrong picture of God, then surely God himself would be elated and pleased that I have indeed rejected a very wrong picture of God.

Moreover, if what I have rejected is a wrong picture of God then I clearly have no rejected any real actual God. I find it extremely odd that many Christians can clearly see this so well that they actually point it out to me, yet they still seem to think that God will damn me for rejecting a totally wrong picture of him. :roll:

The only think I am absolutely certain of is that I have no rejected all that is good and righteous. On the contrary I totally embrace all that is good and righteous. Therefore if God truly is good and righteous, then I clearly embrace God.

But I just don't see a good and righteous God being portrayed in the Bible. What I see in the Bible is an absolutely moronic buffoon who has no sense of morality or righteousness. And so that's what I reject.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I have absolutely no way of knowing whether he was a virgin born demigod or not. So for me to claim that he is would be a lie. Why should I lie about something I cannot know. Is it not better to tell the truth and state honestly that I think the story is utterly absurd and I see no rational value in it.

Surely if there is a good and righteous God that God would appreciate my honesty.

So the Christians who believe in a God who would damn me for not believing in the Bible or Jesus are only confirming my observation that the Bible does indeed describe a hateful and non-compassionate moronic buffoon.

I am highly educated in the Bible, and I find it extremely absurd and impossible to believe. It appears to me to be nothing more than a highly male-chauvinistic and religiously-bigoted version of the Greek Zeus. So I see no reason to believe that it's anything more than that. It's just the Hebrew version of Zeus is all.

And finally to be perfectly honest about the whole thing I have absolutely no respect for any "Christians" who actually thrive on using the Biblical God as a means of belittling or condemning anyone. :roll:

I didn't buy into that type of behavior when I was a Christian, and I certainly don't buy into it now. If there was an actual Jesus I think Christians who use him to condemn non-Christians are actually using Jesus in a hateful way that even Jesus himself would not condone.

But unfortunately hating people in the name of Jesus seems to be a popular Christian mentality.

Not only have you failed to answer the OP's question, but you used his thread as a platform to pronounce your conceit to all. Like you, I used to be a Christian. Unlike you, I do not hate Christians and do not see them as a hating people as you do. You have some real issues to work out.

User avatar
dianaiad
Site Supporter
Posts: 10220
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #20

Post by dianaiad »

JKHolman wrote:

Not only have you failed to answer the OP's question, but you used his thread as a platform to pronounce your conceit to all. Like you, I used to be a Christian. Unlike you, I do not hate Christians and do not see them as a hating people as you do. You have some real issues to work out.
Moderator Comment

Welcome to the forum, JKHolman! We are glad to see you join in. Remember to read the rules, though: address the meat of the post, and don't make negative comments about, or to, the writer of it.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Post Reply