Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

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DanieltheDragon
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Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #1

Post by DanieltheDragon »

I made a claim that I found the book of mormon troubling. Now while I acknowledge this is purely subjective, I find it important and relevant in the discourse of religion to discuss these issues. So I will start with the beginning 1 Nephi.

In Nephi we find that his father his mother and 3 brothers must flee Israel because his father had a vision of its destruction because of the stiffneckedness of the Israeli people and their wickedness in ignoring god's laws. (which is interesting why we can suddenly ignore them now?)

Nephi was the only son of Lehi to take him seriously as the other sons murmured to their father frequently. Apparently on this expedition Nephi and his brothers Laman and Lamuel must go back and acquire brass plates(which are important cause they have the family tree on them and some of god's laws) from Labam. Labam tells them to leave his house and calls them thieves and threatens their lives. Nephi recommends they aquire the property they left behind and use that to acquire the plates. Labam steals the property and kicks them out of Jerusalem. Now Nephi is going to try one last time and this is where I find things to really get troubling.

Nephi 4:
7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath
10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

This I find troubling for several reasons

1. Nephi did not want to kill Labam yet the Spirit of the lord continued to press him to do it.

2. This is murder to attain property that is not yours.

Additionally I have heard of this kind of dialogue before.

http://www.schizophrenic.com/content/sc ... ing-voices
Command hallucinations
Another fairly common experience with regards to the voices is that they tell the schizophrenic to do certain things. Clinically, these are referred to as “command hallucinations�, and in some cases they can cause significant problems. The voices may tell the schizophrenic to harm or kill himself/herself or to harm someone else. Because the voices seem very real, they can be very compelling, making it difficult for the schizophrenic to resist acting on the commands

It is troubling to me because the story of Nephi has some characteristics of Schizophrenia and it is celebrated as a good thing

Now Nephi being a righteous man unto the lord caught a servant fleeing
30 And it came to pass that when the servant of Laban beheld my brethren he began to tremble, and was about to flee from before me and return to the city of Jerusalem.

31 And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature, and also having received much strength of the Lord, therefore I did seize upon the servant of Laban, and held him, that he should not flee.

32 And it came to pass that I spake with him, that if he would hearken unto my words, as the Lord liveth, and as I live, even so that if he would hearken unto our words, we would spare his life.
38 And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father.
and see how merciful Nephi is he spared him his life if he agreed to be kidnapped.


This is just the beginning and there are more troubling stories to come. This one stands out on many levels.

Question for debate:


Is the story of Nephi and Labam a troubling story?

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #31

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 30 by Vanguard]

Part of the problem in my writing is I tend to pack in a lot of different unrelated ideas together in the same post. I am more reactionary in nature to what I discuss. Kinda just go with the flow of whats discussed. So what you brought up started a new tangent in the discussion. There are a lot of things I find wrong with this story and some are interconnected and some are not for example


1.The story 100% true as is.

Ultimately the issue is with god

2.Its true that Nephi wrote the story or it was his account

a. Nephi is the issue and god is irrelevant as he cannot be proven to exist
a1. This leads to schizophrenia as a possibility in which case the issue is not just Nephi but how the story is presented leaving additional fault with J. Smith.

b. Nephi lied about hearing god and just wanted those plates and justified his actions using the god excuse.

c. Nephi may have partially lied. In this case we can't possibly know what the real truth is but this was his account of the events and slated it in such a way to give a perceived justification.

3. The story was made up by Joseph Smith

This might actually be the most troubling because it would be revealing of Joseph Smith's moral standards. That it being a fictional story he could engineer the morals within it in any shape form or fashion and in this case he decided to glorify a beheading.

That is just the issues on the surface level that I have with it and there are likely even more variables given that some can intermingle with each other. So if I appear to be givin you word salad it is because these are most of the things I am considering while I write.

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #32

Post by Vanguard »

DanieltheDragon wrote:Part of the problem in my writing is I tend to pack in a lot of different unrelated ideas together in the same post. I am more reactionary in nature to what I discuss. Kinda just go with the flow of whats discussed.
I haven't a problem with your writing. Yours are fair questions to be asking. :) I like to explore the underlying premises.
So what you brought up started a new tangent in the discussion. There are a lot of things I find wrong with this story and some are interconnected and some are not for example.

1. The story 100% true as is.

Ultimately the issue is with god.
It's strange we're discussing having an issue "with god" when one of the parties involved does not believe in one. In other words, if the BoM had nothing in it that you found morally compromised then you wouldn't have an issue with god? I'm also not clear what you mean by "100% true" in the BoM. Much like with the Bible, what these men concluded as a result of their experiences was colored by their own cultural values and such. I guess I would go as far as to say it is 100% true that this is what they believed.
2. Its true that Nephi wrote the story or it was his account.

a. Nephi is the issue and god is irrelevant as he cannot be proven to exist
a1. This leads to schizophrenia as a possibility in which case the issue is not just Nephi but how the story is presented leaving additional fault with J. Smith.

b. Nephi lied about hearing god and just wanted those plates and justified his actions using the god excuse.

c. Nephi may have partially lied. In this case we can't possibly know what the real truth is but this was his account of the events and slated it in such a way to give a perceived justification.
Who knows ultimately what was in Nephi's heart? We do have other glimpses into what type of man he was from other passages in the BoM. I think on the whole he seems like a pretty good guy. Why couldn't one option be that he legitimately believed his God would have him take this action?
3. The story was made up by Joseph Smith.

This might actually be the most troubling because it would be revealing of Joseph Smith's moral standards. That it being a fictional story he could engineer the morals within it in any shape form or fashion and in this case he decided to glorify a beheading.
This point is the most interesting to me. We both accept Joseph was a real man who made such and such conclusions. Your other points deal with characters who you believe are a fiction which makes for a bit of a strange conversation when we take these "fictional" characters to task for their actions in a book that is supposedly a "fabrication".

You're absolutely correct that if Joseph made the story up then it would certainly reflect his own moral projections. So what if he didn't make it up?

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #33

Post by Vanguard »

Vanguard wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote:Part of the problem in my writing is I tend to pack in a lot of different unrelated ideas together in the same post. I am more reactionary in nature to what I discuss. Kinda just go with the flow of whats discussed.
I haven't a problem with your writing. Yours are fair questions to be asking. :) I like to explore the underlying premises.
So what you brought up started a new tangent in the discussion. There are a lot of things I find wrong with this story and some are interconnected and some are not for example.

1. The story 100% true as is.

Ultimately the issue is with god.
It's strange we're discussing having an issue "with god" when one of the parties involved does not believe in one. In other words, if the BoM had nothing in it that you found morally compromised then you wouldn't have an issue with god? I'm also not clear what you mean by "100% true" in the BoM. Much like with the Bible, what these men concluded as a result of their experiences was colored by their own cultural values and such. I guess I would go as far as to say it is 100% true that this is what they believed.
2. Its true that Nephi wrote the story or it was his account.

a. Nephi is the issue and god is irrelevant as he cannot be proven to exist
a1. This leads to schizophrenia as a possibility in which case the issue is not just Nephi but how the story is presented leaving additional fault with J. Smith.

b. Nephi lied about hearing god and just wanted those plates and justified his actions using the god excuse.

c. Nephi may have partially lied. In this case we can't possibly know what the real truth is but this was his account of the events and slated it in such a way to give a perceived justification.
Who knows ultimately what was in Nephi's heart? We do have other glimpses into what type of man he was from other passages in the BoM. I think on the whole he seems like a pretty good guy. Why couldn't one option be that he legitimately believed his God would have him take this action?
3. The story was made up by Joseph Smith.

This might actually be the most troubling because it would be revealing of Joseph Smith's moral standards. That it being a fictional story he could engineer the morals within it in any shape form or fashion and in this case he decided to glorify a beheading.
This point is the most interesting to me. We both accept Joseph was a real man who made such and such conclusions. Your other points deal with characters who you believe are a fiction which makes for a bit of a strange conversation when we take these "fictional" characters to task for their actions in a book that is supposedly a "fabrication".

You're absolutely correct that if Joseph made the story up then it would certainly reflect his own moral projections. So what if he didn't make it up?
As a follow up, let's say you did accept the claim that Joseph translated and brought the BoM to fruition through the power of God.

What would you be saying about Nephi's actions against Laban?

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #34

Post by help3434 »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Considering that Joseph Smith or whoever wrote the Book of Mormon was emulating the Bible I would say that the Book of Mormon is pretty restrained. Unlike the Bible, in the Book of Mormon there is not genocide committed by the "good guys", the only war that is allowed is defence war.

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #35

Post by bibleman1934 »

[Replying to help3434]

MORMONISM WAS FOUNDED IN THE YEAR 1840, IF YOU WILL STUDY THEIR
HISTORY, THEIR TRAVELS, THEIR CLAIM OF [THEIR GOD] THE BOOK OF MORMON
VERSES THE BIBLE, THE TRUTH IS, THE RELIGION OF MORMONISM IS SPOKEN
OF MANY YEARS BEFORE IT WAS FOUNDED, YOU WILL FIND THE ACCOUNTS OF MORMONISM IN THE HOLY BIBLE, JEREMIAH CHAPTER 42. STUDY THEIR HISTORY,
BIBLEMAN1934.
1840 X 3496 = 6432640 DIVIDE BY 59443 = 108, SUBTRACT 66 = 42 JEREMIAH.[/b]

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #36

Post by bibleman1934 »

[Replying to post 34 by help3434]

BIBLEMAN1934, I HAVE NO ISSUES WHAT SO EVER WITH THE BOOK OF MORMON,
WITH NEPHI OR ANY PART, I THINK THE MAN JOSEPH HAD A FANTISTIC
IMAGINATION WHICH LED TO HIS OWN DOWNFALL. THE RELIGION OF MORMONISM
WAS BORN IN MURDER, HATRED, ADULTRY, LIES. YET IT ADHERED TO THE HUMAN NATURE OF THE TROUBLE TIMES. FOR THAT REASON IT PREVAILED.
IN OUR BIBLE STUDY JEREMIAH 42.

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Re: Troubles with the book of mormon! part 1. NEPHI!

Post #37

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

My question is, "After reading that story, why would anyone willingly read any further?" It's such awful tripe, horribly written, stupid, full of bad ideas and a transparently pathetic attempt to try to sound like something from the KJV.

I'm utterly baffled as to how anyone could take it seriously or consider it worth reading, let alone that it was inspired by a supreme being.

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Post #38

Post by otseng »

[Replying to post 36 by bibleman1934]

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