Does Christ speak and how?

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tam
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Does Christ speak and how?

Post #1

Post by tam »

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
(Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #2

Post by rikuoamero »

My thoughts on this matter
My sheep hear my voice
There is of course a negative connotation with calling humans 'sheep', in that this implies that humans are (more or less) mindless creatures that require a master to lead them places, that all a human will do is stand in place and eat. That the master will then use the sheep for his own ends (wool and meat).
Also...this is then clearly a false prophecy, since surely I would be one who ought to hear Jesus? Since I don't, then this means the prophecy is false.
Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:
Unfortunately, this is weak.
1) We do not have original manuscripts for Bible documents, but rather edits and (mis)translations and copies multiple decades after the fact.
2) This assumes that events played out as written in these Bible stories, but there are no other documents or other evidences that I am aware of that confirm this, such as Paul saying Jesus appeared to a crowd of 500.
Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.
Not one of these men can be considered to have actually existed by historians and archaeologists. The only evidence we have for them are the Bible stories themselves from the Old Testament, so this would end up using the claim as evidence to verify the claim, which is circular.
So without being able to prove that these men even existed, it's no good to say to me "Abraham and Joseph heard God". I'm not convinced that these men were real either.
My own personal testimony
Now, we come to the interesting part. I've already dismissed your first two prongs, what about number three?
Tam, if you please, would you be willing to answer questions?
I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His.
1) Do you mean to say that you have, for a majority of your life, heard a voice, but that you simply didn't recognise who or what that voice was? Was it a voice that communicated in words, or was it just a feeling, as I've heard so many other people say?
But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me
This is a point of contention between myself and yourself, tam. It's the usage of the phrase "bore witness to a living, speaking Christ". I've mentioned to you before, I am a native born English speaker. Individually, I know what those words mean, but put together in that phrase? It's not the first time you've used words in a way completely different to how everybody else uses them.
Please, I ask you, speak plainly. Explain yourself using simpler words, so that there is less ambiguity and less confusion. If somebody says to me they talk to somebody else who is living and speaking, I get a certain image in my mind. That image is of two people standing face to face, or maybe sitting down next to each other in a cafe, and communicating verbally.
Is this what you mean? What do you mean by "bear witness"?
But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke.
Just like you are doing now. Okay, go on.
But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.
Now we're at the interesting part. Now...you do realize that at this point, I have to trust completely what you say? There is no way, none whatsoever, of a person providing evidence that they actually hear a voice inside their head. It's not like there's a device I can hook up that will play such a voice on a speaker.
The problem with this sort of claim, tam, isn't that I or my fellow atheists are unwilling to trust God. That's a separate issue. No, the problem is, we have to trust YOU. So far, you have not earned that trust. I do not know you beyond this username on a debate forum. I know nothing of who you are or what you look like, or where you live or whatever. You're just text on a screen, to me. I will not ask for such details.
So when you go on to tell us this story of hearing a voice, we have to trust that you aren't making this up. We have to trust that you have performed due diligence and investigated other possible explanations for hearing this voice, but we have no way of confirming this, beyond your word (which isn't worth much).

At this point, I will continue to examine what you write.
I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."
At this point, I have to call a two letter acronym. You're honestly saying to me that you heard a foreign voice in your head (foreign meaning not your own here), and didn't freak out? That you just decided to go along with it?
I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words.
Do you keep a record of what Jesus says to you? It's one thing for you to be saying "Yeah, Jesus talks to me, using words" and to actually provide some sort of evidence. First thing I would do, if I was constantly hearing a voice, is write down what that voice says.
However, I'm going to guess you don't. You hear the voice, it suggests something, and you go along with it. You don't bother to write a record.
He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams.
The problem here is separating out a 'Jesus-dream' or a 'Jesus-vision' from all those other dreams and visions that are just the mind working normally. Is there some way to test that when a person talks about dreaming about Jesus, that it wasn't just an ordinary dream?
About the only way I can imagine is if such Jesus-dreams are real, that Jesus imparts some information that the dreamer couldn't possibly have known. So my long-standing invitation is still open. I have a sheet of paper with a phrase written on it in my bedside drawers. No-one knows what is on that sheet of paper. A God who is all knowing would know what is on that sheet of paper. A God who works through you and wants me to know him and to come to him would give me a sign that shows that he is real. Such a sign could only be you saying to me what that sheet of paper has written on it.
He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.
How is it you've determined that this isn't your mind normally at work, that this isn't you simply remembering things from the past like you would normally? I honestly have no clue what you mean here. If I think back on a book I read a few days ago, I recall holding my tablet in hand, and reading. What is it for you? What is remembering like for you that you somehow have a God man involved in the process?
He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.
What, physically opened your eyes? Or do you mean imparted some sort of understanding? If the latter, I have to remind you - you are NOT the only person in the world who claims such a thing. Other people have said pretty much the same thing here, but when we get down to discussing what Jesus teaches and what he meant in Bible passages XYZ, you and they are at odds.
He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice.
So...you're reading the Bible, and you hear him reading it out loud. Okay...have you ever tested whether you hear this voice without you having a Bible open? Have you had someone else open the Bible to a random page, have them read it silently, and then heard Jesus recite to you what that other person is reading? That would be something, wouldn't it? If you would be willing to, we could have a Skype video call, I could hold up one of my copies of the Bible to the camera, flip it open to somewhere at random and then tell me what I (and Jesus) are reading. (This is basically another variation of my sheet of paper challenge).
Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.
Funny though. If Jesus honestly does this, gives you information in response to what another person has asked, that not one single person I've talked to on this subject has repeated what's on my sheet of paper. Or what my credit card numbers are. Are you the same as all those other people I've talked to? How do you make yourself stand out from the crowd of people all claiming to hear Jesus, but who have all failed my challenges?
The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.
I outlined the problems of listening to a voice in my 'Holy Spirit - Mind Manipulator' thread. The most effective liars are those who speak nothing but the truth - they just pick and choose their words carefully so that the other person believes something. I speak from experience on this matter - when I was a child, I lied. A lot. I was very good at it, such that nothing I said was actually outright false.
Anyway, I hold truth to be that which corresponds with reality. We're now back at my sheet of paper challenge. As for love? Can you ask Jesus what he meant by Luke 14:26?
This link
http://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm has a bunch of translations of that verse and by an large, they all say and promote hate towards one's family. Do you hate your family? Have you said to them "I follow Jesus, but he requires me to hate you, so I now hate you all!"? God's Word Translation has the word 'abandon' instead, have you run out on your family?
I'll tell you as someone who has lost contact with family for YEARS at a time that this teaching is the sort of thing that turns me away.
I thought you said Jesus said only love? Where's the love here? What about John 12:25?
http://biblehub.com/john/12-25.htm
Again, I'm seeing some pretty stark hatred of life there! And here you are, on this forum, saying Jesus speaks ONLY love. There's a conflict.
(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true.
Really? So your metric as to what 'true' is, is simply what Jesus says? But Jesus is quoted as saying things that ran counter to Jewish 'history'. For example, John 3:13
http://biblehub.com/john/3-13.htm says that no man has gone up to heaven. But...what about Enoch, and Elijah? The Bible, in the Old Testament, says that these two men went up to heaven, long before Jesus. Surely Jesus would have known that? Do you accept what the OT says about Enoch and Elijah? If so, why does Jesus say no man has gone up to heaven?
The problem I have with your stance (if something conflicts with what Jesus says, then that thing is not-true) is that so far, you have not shown evidence that Jesus even said the things in the Bible. You have not accounted for the many contradictions in the Bible. There is also the problem of relying on another person as your gauge or meter for truth, rather than reality itself; that person could lie to you or say something that is false while believing it themselves, and since that person is your gauge and you do not fact check...

I also have to ask...what about people who lived before Jesus? Who lived and died long before 0-33AD? Going by how you measure truth, how would a person living in 200BC know something to be true, since Jesus hasn't been born yet and hasn't said anything? If your metric of truth is 'what Jesus says', then this means, logically speaking, that people who lived and died before Jesus would have had no means whatsoever to discern truth. Is that your position?
I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ.
Do you not see the problem here? Apparently, you are aware that many people claim to hear Christ...but you just dismiss them out of hand. It's fine if you want to go on continuing to believe that you do in fact hear Christ. No skin off my back. The problem arises when you communicate this to other people, when you want other people, such as myself, to believe you.
Do you want me to believe you? I've said it before to other people and I'll repeat it here again - if you honestly don't want other people to believe you on this topic, then (in my sight) there is nothing to discuss. There is no conversation to be had. There's no point in my discussing truth claims with you if you don't want to at least try to convince me.
then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.
This will be my final time asking this question. Other people have asked this. HOW? How do I ask? If you read a book by your favourite author and are confused by some passage, my advice would be to ask that author, and more specifically, to go about it by either writing a letter, writing an email, or phoning that author. How do I do this with Christ? Do I just verbally ask my question to an empty room? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, heard nothing.

Final Edit - I also disagree with the "Do what he has said" bit. I have to remind you, that those are specific actions that would take up time and resources, both of which I only have finite amounts of. Why should I do what Christ says (which in this thread, you haven't bothered outlining what exactly they are) during this period of my life where I don't believe in him or his teachings? Why should I or anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus give credence and do what he says over that of any other religious prophet or any other figure? What if a Muslim version of you comes along and says I should do what Muhammed said? Or someone else who says of their holy person? Why should I give what Jesus said to do priority over these guys?
The answer is, you haven't. You have given me no reason to do what Jesus said. It's almost like you're attempting Pascal's Wager here.
If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing.
This is what you call love? Obeying someone? Your view on love is at odds with my own.
Last edited by rikuoamero on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: My own personal testimony
I've never heard any voices in my head other than my own. So for me, there either is no "Christ", or I am my own "Christ".

I can't imagine what it must be like for people to hear voices in their head that aren't their own. I thought that would be considered to be a mental disorder?
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Post #4

Post by rikuoamero »

Just an addition to my previous comment. It's here since I can no longer edit it.
I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ.
You have indicated both here and elsewhere that when it comes interpretation of the Bible, you listen to what Jesus says on the matter. Okay.
So do these other people. They too say or will say or have said that they hear Jesus, much like you do, yet at least some of them will completely oppose some point of Bible interpretation you have.
So look at it like this.
I'm the outsider. On my left, I have you, tam, who says s/he (I honestly can't remember which you've identified as) has the correct understanding, the correct interpretation of Bible passages, that you get the correct understanding straight from the horse's mouth (Jesus). On my right, I've got another person (let's call him Bob) who says he has the correct understanding, the correct interpretation of the Bible, and that he too gets it straight from the horse's mouth.
However, when I discuss a controversial issue (such as homosexual marriage or abortion) I get different responses. You're pro, and he's anti. Or maybe you're anti and he's pro.
BOTH of you justify your positions by saying Jesus or God said it, you point to relevant passages from the Bible, and both of you say that Jesus told you, directly, with words, what he wants.
How am I to decide between the two of you? Neither of you offer up a method as to tell which of you is actually hearing the real Jesus. All you've given are very vague responses such as "test against love", which apparently means to obey.

At this point, the rational position, as I see it, is to dismiss both you and Bob until or unless one of you comes up with some evidence to break this deadlock.

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Post #5

Post by beeswax »

Hi Tam, thanks very much for your explanation and to Rik for following up and appreciate both posters for doing that as it must have taken much time and thought to post them here. I won't ridicule or scorn you for believing as you do because its evident that 'for you' everything you said is true, 'for you'. As Rik replied its very difficult to 'test' anything you have said and so you are right it can only be a 'personal' testimony and its not a problem for Christians as they will nod and say yep that sounds familiar or great what Christ is doing in your life.

I also appreciate your differentiation of biblical authors and text when they don't essentially meet your ideas and those of Jesus when they conflict on moral issues. Its good to try and reason things out with or without the bible and Jesus IF you can which brings me to another question.

Had you been born a Muslim or Jew or any other religion, then what difference do you think that would make to you? People from these other faiths also believe in miracles and personal revelation as you do? Does this mean that Jesus OR God is communicating to them in the same way but maybe Muhammad talking to them or the Angel Gabriel?

Thomas Paine said we should not believe in the revelation of ANYONE else and its not incumbent for us to believe it for obvious reasons we all know. But IF God wants us all to believe in him and in his Son Jesus then its not difficult for him to reveal that to us by 'personal' revelation is it? Why should certain individuals in the bible get these revelations and not billions of others? Why didn't Jesus speak to Muhammad like he did with others and few had any NT text to rely on did they like you quoted and John's Gospel is so misleading its had to be put on one side as the writer clearly was making things up to suit HIS theology which is completely different to that of the disciples if we read the synoptics comparatively.

I too object to the sheep analogy as that shuts down the debate to unthinking people. None of us should be like sheep or lemmings just following others opinion and direction as that can lead anywhere.

I too claim to have some sort of miracle or intervention via a life saving event that could or should have a normal explanation and wish there was and I have tried to figure it out as any Trained Engineer would, but the alternative explanations don't work very well and why I think it was something other than a 'lucky' escape from death. That has led to me first embracing Christianity with renewed passion as I too thought it may have been a Jesus intervention but the more I sought the truth from the NT and many many hours/weeks/years of personal contemplation, the more I believe God was leading me away from religious cults including Christianity. I even asked God to show where Jesus fitted in and Jesus too but I didn't get any revelation. ie God AND Jesus could well be active in many unseen ways we don't understand but why the secrecy? I my case a privet bush saved my life...Seems like God uses such things hey? ;)

I then read something in John's Gospel that made me weep a little actually..

When Jesus was preaching the bread of life and he said to his disciples that they still didn't understand why he had come to them and that it was his Father in heaven that chose them and he was given that responsibility to always take care of them unconditionally as that was the will of his Father. I then went to a local church soon after and they sung this song Tam that you will like and it caused me to weep again when I thought Jesus was speaking directly to me..

Break thou the bread of life.



Seeing Jesus BEYOND the written word and to seek the spirit also..I then thought how could God outcast so many deserving souls from other religions and cultures and so the search for me continues. I have always said i could one day to the fold to once again meet all those other sheep in there and one sinner that repenteth etc? ;) Its easy to get carried away with the emotional aspects of any faith.

ATB and thanks again,

Mike

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #6

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 1 by tam]
tam wrote: May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...
I don't see how the above CAN be acceptable to anyone, tam.

a) personal testimony might convince yourself, but not anyone else. We would need to VERIFY that your testimony is accurate and true, tam. We would need evidence for that. It's impossible, as far as I can tell, for anyone to do that but you for you. Your testimony can only be evidence FOR YOU, and NOT for anyone else.

So, personal testimony without evidence to back it up is perfectly useless to anyone else. Sorry, tam. And it adds nothing to any debate.

b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ suffers from the same problem as (a) . Just because someone wrote their personal testimonies DOWN does not mean that we can verify them. They would ALSO have to provide some kind of evidence that what they are testifying about is true and real. So, again, personal testimony delivered by any media is perfectly useless UNLESS it is backed up by evidence to support it. Testimony alone doesn't prove a thing. Sorry, tam.

c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter is also completely irrelevant. First off, tam, we can't VERIFY that Jesus ever said anything. What we HAVE is written text. Anyone can write things down. We do not know who wrote the so called "sayings" of Jesus or why, or if they were accurate, or if they were completely made up. We currently have NO way to verify these "testimonies", and so we cannot use them as proof for your inner messages.

What you have offered us here is one of the WORST kinds of evidence possible, and just wouldn't fly in most courts. There's a reason for that, tam.

We know how utterly unreliable eye witness testimony is.

So, in order to convince me that you talk to Christ, and are not simply imagining it, you would have to provide much better evidence than YOUR WORD or other people's WORD.

People giving testimony can be:

1) Deluded.
2) Mistaken.
3) Lying.
4) Frivolous.

We would need to exclude these very real possibilities before we could take your word for it, tam, or anyone else's word for it.

I find your ideas very interesting, but riddled with problems.

Slavery is not peaceful nor does it indicate free will.

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

tam wrote: May you have peace!
...

The language that He speaks is truth.

...
While I agree on the whole with this post this line gives me pause when I recall that the serpent used the truth to get Eve to sin...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

ttruscott wrote:
tam wrote: May you have peace!
...

The language that He speaks is truth.

...
While I agree on the whole with this post this line gives me pause when I recall that the serpent used the truth to get Eve to sin...
If the serpent spoke the truth, then it was God who lied.

Also, why punish the serpent for telling the truth?

Isn't telling the truth a righteous thing to do? :-k
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tam
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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #9

Post by tam »

Peace to you all. I am going to try to get to everyone's comments, but it may not be in order, and I did need to address this one first. (so obviously it won't be in order, lol)
ttruscott wrote:
tam wrote: May you have peace!
...

The language that He speaks is truth.

...
While I agree on the whole with this post this line gives me pause when I recall that the serpent used the truth to get Eve to sin...

Used some truth (remember that the Adversary continues to transform himself into an angel of light), to get them to buy into the lie.

That they could eat of that tree, and be like God... and yet live. (not die)



Kernel of truth:

When you eat you will know good (life) and bad (death).


Used to get them to believe the lie(s):

You will not die.

God does not want you to be like Him.

God is lying to you.

God does not love you.

God will not provide for you the things that you need.



The first is the lie that the Adversary stated. The rest are the lies that he implied.

He used some truth, to DECEIVE them, into believing the lie(s), including the lies he implied about God.


Though this is another thread perhaps, the Adversary does this still. Uses some truth (which is what draws those who seek truth into religions/cults/etc), in order to deceive even the elect, if possible.


Peace to you ttruscott,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #10

Post by tam »

Peace to you Beeswax.
Had you been born a Muslim or Jew or any other religion, then what difference do you think that would make to you?


It is pretty hard to answer these kinds of questions. If I were born a Jew, I would be a Jew because it is in the blood. (with exception to those who converted) But even then that does not mean that I would be a religious Jew.

I am not part of religion at all NOW, even though my faith is in Christ and God. Although some people (mistakenly) object to this being possible, I think you may be able to understand how one can have faith, but not religion.

My point is that just because one is born into a religion, does not mean that one will remain there. One may indeed hear His voice calling,

"Come out of her, my people."

People from these other faiths also believe in miracles and personal revelation as you do? Does this mean that Jesus OR God is communicating to them in the same way but maybe Muhammad talking to them or the Angel Gabriel?
This is my understanding as I have learned from Him. Christ speaks to everyone (and with few exceptions, it is Christ speaking today, as the Word of God, the One God gave us to listen TO, and the mediator between man and God). So these other people could have heard from Christ. They just may not have understood that it was Him, and/or misunderstood what He said.

I mean, many people in Christianity who are supposed to be listening to Him, are not. At least people in other religions have not promised to obey Christ and are not calling themselves Christians, but those who call themselves Christians have promised themselves to Christ. Yet, many are actually listening to and remaining faithful to a particular denomination ("daughter") and its religious leaders over Christ.

I too object to the sheep analogy as that shuts down the debate to unthinking people. None of us should be like sheep or lemmings just following others opinion and direction as that can lead anywhere.
I do not know when this started, but we are not called sheep because we blindly follow others opinions and directions. We are supposed to think, to ask, to reason, to test what we hear, from men and from spirits. How else are we to watch out for those who would mislead us? False prophets? False christs?

"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false." Revelation 2:2

The sheep and the shepherd analogy is as much for the Shepherd as the sheep. There are bad shepherds, and there is the Good Shepherd. Who takes care of His sheep. Who leads them to water (of Life).

Then there are a lot of so-called shepherds out there who fleece ($) the flock, lie and (verbally) beat them, who load them up with heavy burdens, and who are actually wolves in sheep's clothing.

I too claim to have some sort of miracle or intervention via a life saving event that could or should have a normal explanation and wish there was and I have tried to figure it out as any Trained Engineer would, but the alternative explanations don't work very well and why I think it was something other than a 'lucky' escape from death. That has led to me first embracing Christianity with renewed passion as I too thought it may have been a Jesus intervention but the more I sought the truth from the NT and many many hours/weeks/years of personal contemplation, the more I believe God was leading me away from religious cults including Christianity. I even asked God to show where Jesus fitted in and Jesus too but I didn't get any revelation. ie God AND Jesus could well be active in many unseen ways we don't understand but why the secrecy? I my case a privet bush saved my life...Seems like God uses such things hey? ;)
Cute ; )

(The bush was not burning itself, mind you, the seraph (angel) in the bush that was speaking to Moses had the appearance of burning, though not the heat that would accompany an actual fire or the bush would have been consumed and it was not.)


On this:
That has led to me first embracing Christianity with renewed passion as I too thought it may have been a Jesus intervention but the more I sought the truth from the NT and many many hours/weeks/years of personal contemplation, the more I believe God was leading me away from religious cults including Christianity.
You sought truth in Christianity and the NT. With respect (and there is no need to answer me), I would ask if you thought to seek truth in Christ alone; first and foremost? Because Christianity and Christ are not the same things, and the religion does not get its authority from Christ, despite what some religions and men teach.

Christ called and led me away from religion. Because while all religion has some truth - the bit of truth being the lure for those who are seeking Truth; all religion also has some lies. Its purpose is not to create followers after Christ, but to create followers after itself. Some/many hold hostage those who are afraid to leave it for fear of losing their loved ones (or something similar), or being shunned, or excommunicated. And some cause those who do leave it, to leave Christ and God as well.

It is very successful at what it does, because of the power that people give to it, the authority it gains from the ruler(s) of this world, and because of the very little faith there is in the world. As unpopular a statement as that might be.


Christ also says, speaking of Babylon the Great, the adulteress who claims to sit as a queen (because she believes herself to be married to the King: Christ; but is in fact an adulteress, not remaining faithful to Him and Him alone):

"Come out of her, my people!"

And this means coming out of her "daughters" as well.


Perhaps you might consider that God (or Christ) could indeed have been telling you NOT to look at Christianity for truth, and not to look at what is written for truth... because the One you are supposed to look at (or listen to) is Christ, Himself. First and foremost.


Even that book writes Christ as saying,

"You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."



I
then read something in John's Gospel that made me weep a little actually..
When Jesus was preaching the bread of life and he said to his disciples that they still didn't understand why he had come to them and that it was his Father in heaven that chose them and he was given that responsibility to always take care of them unconditionally as that was the will of his Father. I then went to a local church soon after and they sung this song Tam that you will like and it caused me to weep again when I thought Jesus was speaking directly to me..

Break thou the bread of life.



Seeing Jesus BEYOND the written word and to seek the spirit also..I then thought how could God outcast so many deserving souls from other religions and cultures and so the search for me continues. I have always said i could one day to the fold to once again meet all those other sheep in there and one sinner that repenteth etc? ;) Its easy to get carried away with the emotional aspects of any faith.

ATB and thanks again,

Mike
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I can certainly understand why you would have wept. He, Himself, is the bread of life. Not some two dimensional character from religion or from a book.. but the Living Christ Himself. The Living Word of God.

The freedom and truth in that, in Him, is beautiful. It is a beautiful thing to hear His voice, to hear Him speaking to you.


Thank you for sharing some of your experiences here, Beeswax, and for the kind and respectful discourse.


Peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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