Does Christ speak and how?

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Does Christ speak and how?

Post #1

Post by tam »

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
(Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #171

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 170 by bluedog]
I still find it strange that you support legalized death to the unborn...but make charges of wrong doing against God. Again...me thinks you are somewhat hypocritical and insincere
You did just say this as well
Why did the children die? Because of their evil parents.
You have literally no legs to stand on when it comes to the topic of abortion. You support it as well. You literally admit to it, in the same comment. So I don't give a rat's behind what you say about me or the other atheists on this site. You can holler all you like that abortion is evil, that people are evil for supporting it...but then you holler just as loudly in favour of it, when it's being done in the name of your god.
I'm putting you on my ignore list. All you do is rant and rave. I'm honestly surprised the mods haven't smacked you down yet for preaching.
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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #172

Post by KenRU »

bluedog wrote: If you are a true atheist....which there actually are none..because they are not capable of proving the negative they demand others to prove...the existence or non-existence of God.
By this logic, there are no true theists, since the existence of a deity cannot be proved either.
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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #173

Post by Clownboat »

bluedog wrote: [Replying to post 169 by rikuoamero]

Splitting hairs...no? You don't support the killing of innocent children but you support the legal right for others to engage in murder. And the law makes it moral? O:)

Again....I simply demonstrate the truth....if you support something you are just as guilty of it. There is a sin of omission as well as commission. You can't defend something and claim that you don't believe in it.

Just like the truth of making these accusations about the origin of Christianity...the Holy Bible and God. Those charges are made in an attempt to invoke emotion. Poor little children...cry me a river....I am mad as hell...those poor innocent children. Is that the response you are looking for? Or am I angry because you don't like the truth found in the Bible? The first charge out of your mouth...YOU ARE AN ANGRY CHRISTIAN. Why? That is the fished for response...no? But the truth is not concerned with emotion.

The truth of the matter is All LIFE EXISTS because of God...we are all allowed to live because He allows us to live....people die at every stage of life. Therefore if its wrong for God to allow children to die...its wrong for God to allow everyone to die. Everyone dies...no? WE BELONG TO GOD -- Ez. 18:4

Death exists because man disobeyed the Law of God, God did not want man to die, man dies because of sin -- Gen. 2:17.

God allowed these children to die because their parents were given an opportunity to change their pagan worshiping, fire burning sacrificial ways...and they refused.

Consider the world and the flood and the innocent children killed. God gave the world 120 years to turn from its sin (Gen. 6:3). He even sent Noah out and preached to them hoping they would turn as God does not even want the wicked to die before having a change to turn from their evil ways (Ez. 18:21-23).....That's why God sent Noah out in hopes of seeing some form of repentance (2 Peter 2:49)....yet, He found it just because He offered and they refused.

Why did the children die? Because of their evil parents. The children will spend eternity with God...they were innocent. Now consider the children of the Canaanites, Amorites....take note as revealed in scripture...they were EVIL and WICKED they were even burning their own children as a sacrifices to pagan gods....and the reason why God allowed anyone that offered up their child...after being warned not to engage in such activity....to be punished (Deut. 12:29-31) God warned HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL not to become ensnared in such wicked practices as offering up your own children to please some god.

Yet as wicked as these people were...God gave them 4 generations to repent and leave the land promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:16) The practice of offering children up to pagan gods was considered an abomination by God (Lev. 18:24-25)

The scriptures enlighten us that God did not want Israel to profit from any of the evil deeds after the punishment was carried out after they refused to turn from their wicked practices. He ordered Israel to kill the seed, and even the property. Yet...they did not destroy all the cattle, sheep, etc., and even brought the evil king back without executing him. God chastised Israel for not killing everyone and destroying all their ill-gotten property.

Why allow the children to die? If the wicked parents were killed...because of their evil practices, who would take care of the children (should they have been allowed to starve to death?) What about Israel taking them in? God had ordered that Israel was not to profit....if these children were allowed to raised, they would cause a profit to be made from the evil deeds of the parents....in the grown children could be used as farm hands..etc.

So....God decided to bring the Children Home to Him they were not charged for the sins of their parents, they were innocent, they were allowed to die...before they could be taught the evil of their parents.

I still find it strange that you support legalized death to the unborn...but make charges of wrong doing against God. Again...me thinks you are somewhat hypocritical and insincere...as YOU REALLY DON'T CARE how many children die...when you support the right to do it. Why do you even care about some supposed "story" that happened thousands of years ago....if not to invoke emotion in the hopes of destroying the faith of someone? I find that somewhat WICKED myself...just saying.

Is that not one of the things God finds to be abomination? "Causing discourse among brethren?" -- Prov. 6:16-19 That's 2 out of the 7....you "LEGALLY" (wink, wink) support the spilling of innocent blood. Indeed a strange god you worship...or don't....if you are agnostic. Me thinks the god most people worship is SELF.
:D
The babies that god ordered killed in the stories were wanted babies. I would imagine the mothers also wanted to live, but we don't seem to care about them. So let's just call them evil and assume that they got what they deserved. The victors said they deserved it after all. :roll:
An aborted fetus, by definition is unwanted.

You're getting pretty off topic, but do bare this in mind while you are defending genocide. Your god ordered the murder of people that were living and wanted to live. No matter how you feel about abortion, the fetus being aborted is not yet realized, doesn't have the same 'value' as let's say a child, and is by definition unwanted (except for in cases where it is done to save the mothers life of course).

Your argument comes across like this for me:
- Some people are OK with removing an unwanted fetus from their own body, therefore it is OK that my god concept committed genocide on entire civilizations.

Was Hitler justified in your opinion? Some mothers abort fetuses after all.
:facepalm:
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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #174

Post by Peds nurse »

bluedog wrote:Perhaps this will help with your misconception that scripture cannot be comprehended.
I never said that the Bible could not be comprehended, and I apologize if my point was not made.
Bluedog wrote:The Bible interprets itself if allowed. When you come across a subject matter that you find difficult to comprehend...simply look up every instance in scripture, both Old and New testament where the scriptures address that subject matter and it will interpret itself.
I believe that the Holy Spirit aids in understanding. I also believe that other sources can be used to help us understand.

bluedog wrote: Jesus was and remains the most powerful king to ever rule over a kingdom. O:)
I agree
Bluedog wrote:The Bible teaches that the entire word of God must be considered before TRUTH can be found.
Perhaps you are correct here, but you missed my entire point that I was trying to make. The only thing that studying God's word can do, apart from practicing it, is to make us Biblical scholars. Biblical scholars didn't impress Jesus at all (look at the pharisees). Loving Him and loving people are the greatest commands. If we don't have these things, then our knowledge is pointless.

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #175

Post by Divine Insight »

bluedog wrote: If you are a true atheist....which there actually are none..because they are not capable of proving the negative they demand others to prove...the existence or non-existence of God.
Actually this is quite wrong. It's easy to prove the non-existence of something if you have enough information about it. For example, in mathematics mathematicians are always proving the non-existence of various things. They can easily prove that there does not exist a rational solution to the square root of 2 for example.

So it's quite possible to prove a negative. But I agree that even many atheists fall for the claim that proving a negative is impossible. That's actually not true.

In the case of proving the non-existence of an ill-defined "God" it would be impossible. The reason it would be in possible is because there is nothing to disprove there. If there is no meaningful description of the thing, then proving its non-existence is not possible.

However, this is not the case for the God described in the Bible. Like the square root of 2, the Biblical God has plenty of information concerning what it must be like. And that information is actually extremely self-contradictory. Therefore proving the the "Biblical God" cannot possibly exist is actually as easy, as proving that there are no rational solutions to the square root of 2.

The God described in the Bible is an oxymoron. The Bible itself proves this on almost every page of the canon.

So it's not only possible to prove that the God described by the Bible verbatim cannot exist, but it's actually quite easy.

Now you may say, "What about in some vague non-literal sense that ignores what the Bible actually says verbatim?"

Well, in that case there are two major problems. The first one being that in order to twist things that far from what the Bible actually says it needs to be far more than merely a non-literal interpretation. It actually need to be extreme pretense that the Bible is can be made to say things that are even remotely close to what it literally says.

And the second problem, is that even if a person could construct a "non-literal" God that doesn't match the Biblical description verbatim, then it would be kind of silly to call that fabricated "God" the "Biblical God".

Do the Biblical God can't possibly exist no matter what and it quite easy to prove false.

~~~~

No having said all of the above, if you want to talk about some other vague concept of God that has nothing at all to do with the Bible, they yes, that vague concept could not be disproved. But then again, it would need to be so vague that it wouldn't be a very useful "God" in any case. Because as soon as you start getting too specific about what the God must be like, you once again run the risk of exposing it to being easily disproved.

So it's simply not true that it's impossible to prove a negative. That's actually quite easy if you have enough information to go on.
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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #176

Post by OnceConvinced »

bluedog wrote:

If you are a true atheist....which there actually are none..because they are not capable of proving the negative they demand others to prove...the existence or non-existence of God.
Why do some people have such a problem understanding the definition of an atheist? An atheist is simply someone who does not believe in God. There is no need to prove or disprove anything. They simply do NOT believe.

The burden of proof is on the person who makes a claim. If someone says "There is no god" it is up to them to prove that fact. If someone says "There IS a god" the onus is on them. I, as an atheist do not go around saying there is no god. I simply say I don't believe in God. In fact for me I am simply UNABLE to believe in a God. That makes me an atheist. To me there is no convincing argument that any god exists, so I remain in disbelief.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World of Fantasy

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #177

Post by William »

tam wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:24 pm May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
(Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
From the above this:
I was asked how does He speak
That is a good question for any intelligent individual to ask someone who claims to hear "The Lord" speaking to them.

Since "The Lord" is an invisible entity [spirit] then any 'speaking' done by such an entity in relation to human beings [visible entities] has to be interesting for that.
He speaks in words.


Words are sounds. So he speaks using sounds.
He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of).
Sounds and vision...from what you have shared re your particular relationship with The Lord Tam, giving you a vision would do nothing to enhance your understanding of the true nature of this reality experience. The best he could do is to give you a vision of what you expect to be truth and love, which limits what the vision can convey.
This is in line with my own understanding that in the next phase we will experience whatever we will create for ourselves. How can it be any other way?
He speaks in dreams.
Sounds and vision and experiences...
He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.
He uses the individuals brain in order to retrieve past experience relevant to current experience...joining the dots which eventually show the individual the serendipity and synchronicity of nature. "We are within a creation/reality simulation."
He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.
What about other books - words and sayings from other books? Does your Lord use other books to speak to you and if not, why not?
He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.
Does he use memes and sayings from other religions?
Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.
Does your Lord use all manner of medium in order to convey to you the exactness of what it is he is attempting to communicate with you?
The language that He speaks is truth.


A slave is not free. It is said that The Lord himself told folk that the truth would set them free. Does The Lord use other people to try and assist those who are still enslaved to their beliefs?
He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.
Then IF The Lord does use other people as yet another means in which to communicate with you Tam, why do you think your particular understanding of 'the truth' and 'love' is correct enough that you reject their testimony and demonize them, by implying that they are hearing 'lying spirits'? [see our conversation re this LINK]
What evidence have you actually presented in relation to 'lying spirits' influencing people whom you judge as NOT being true and loving [like The Lord] to which clearly shows us that you yourself are NOT the one being influenced by 'lying spirits'?

What is the instrument you use in order to know the difference?
(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true.
So we have a clue as to what this instrument you test difference by that I ask you to produce...but - clearly - while you reference it to imply that it exists, you do not say what that instrument actually is...so how are we to test your claims?
Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)
As should be clear to the reader Tam, we have some idea that you do not resonate with other types of truth and love if they conflict with what you have [somehow] being taught to recognize said conditions...but what makes this "truth and love" you think you have and hold,
'the real deal'?

From what you have said in your witness as a 'slave of Christ' etc...there is no evidence presented which helps confirm your claim is legitimate.
Somewhere "is it written" [ I think I have read ] along the lines that there will be those who call Christ "Lord" to whom Christ will tell them that he does not know who they are - has never meet them or communed with them and will tell their lying butts to be gone.

How Am I [are we] to know you are not one of those Tam?

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #178

Post by William »

In addition to my above post Tam, this is what you wrote in another thread when arguing against my own experiences and the experiences that others have shared:
There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.
And in this thread you make claims regarding how Christ "speaks"
He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.
That is why you are being asked to account for why you think when it is [your belief] that The Lord speaks to you in these same ways, you have no apparent problem that these are true while simultaneously critiquing others as being the possible product of lies.

What makes what you believe is 'the truth', is actually not lies?

Just some things to perhaps consider. Or not, as you choose.

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #179

Post by tam »

Peace still to you William,

Responding to your post about the OP, viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377
He speaks in words.


Words are sounds. So he speaks using sounds.
Words are not necessarily sounds (or at least not audible sounds heard with physical ears). We can think in words, and words can be written <- neither of those make physically audible sounds. Words spoken from the Spirit (from Christ), are - in my experience - heard within, with spiritual ears. Still a voice - but not one heard with PHYSICAL ears.

You might have understood (and meant) the same thing, but just in case, I wanted to be clear.
He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of).
Sounds and vision...from what you have shared re your particular relationship with The Lord Tam, giving you a vision would do nothing to enhance your understanding of the true nature of this reality experience.
I think what you might mean here, William, is that giving me a vision (of something) would do nothing to enhance an understanding of what you claim to be the 'true nature of this reality experience'.

On that I believe we are in agreement.
The best he could do is to give you a vision of what you expect to be truth and love, which limits what the vision can convey.
Says who? Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
This is in line with my own understanding that in the next phase we will experience whatever we will create for ourselves. How can it be any other way?
Why could it not be any other way (than what is in line with your own understanding)?

A vision or any communication could certainly be of something real/true (truth is the language that Christ speaks speaks and shares; He does not deceive). Why do you think it could not be?

He speaks in dreams.
Sounds and vision and experiences...
Words, visions, dreams...
He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.
He uses the individuals brain in order to retrieve past experience relevant to current experience...joining the dots which eventually show the individual the serendipity and synchronicity of nature. "We are within a creation/reality simulation."
Bring to mind - remind.

(and it is this world that contains the lies, the illusions, William. Not the Father's house - and not the Kingdom or world to come when God makes everything new.)
He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.
What about other books - words and sayings from other books? Does your Lord use other books to speak to you and if not, why not?
He can, if relevant. That was covered in the previous point re: something read.
He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.
Does he use memes and sayings from other religions?
I bolded and underlined the relevant part in my quote.

If they were HIS sayings, then what you ask would apply. If they were not His sayings, then it would not apply.
Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.
Does your Lord use all manner of medium in order to convey to you the exactness of what it is he is attempting to communicate with you?
I don't understand your question or its relevance to what I said.
The language that He speaks is truth.


A slave is not free. It is said that The Lord himself told folk that the truth would set them free. Does The Lord use other people to try and assist those who are still enslaved to their beliefs?
Again, I do not see the relevance of your response to my words.

But as to your point:

1 - what a slave does when granted their freedom is up to them. They are free to make that choice, yes?

2 - Yes, Christ did say that the Truth would set us free. Meaning HE would set us free. He is the Truth WHO sets us free. Compare John 8:32 to John 8:36. Christ also said that if one wishes to be greatest then one must first become LEAST. Just as He also made HIMSELF least (see also Luke 22:26, 27; Matt 20:28), and just as He does the Father's will over His own will. Not out of fear, and not because the Father forces Him, or even because He is not free. But out of LOVE for His Father. He is also the Son of God, and His Father has given Him the highest position (second only to the Father Himself).

He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.
Then IF The Lord does use other people as yet another means in which to communicate with you Tam, why do you think your particular understanding of 'the truth' and 'love' is correct enough that you reject their testimony and demonize them, by implying that they are hearing 'lying spirits'? [see our conversation re this LINK]
What evidence have you actually presented in relation to 'lying spirits' influencing people whom you judge as NOT being true and loving [like The Lord] to which clearly shows us that you yourself are NOT the one being influenced by 'lying spirits'?
Christ is the mediator between man and God. There is no mediator between man and Christ. (Though we can discuss, and sometimes a person may endeavor to expound the truth more accurately to someone else, such as in the case with Priscilla and Aquila to Apollos, see Acts 18:25-27, though this is done in love. Iron sharpening iron and all that). But giving your question the benefit of the doubt, if Christ used another person to communicate with me... then that person would not be saying something in conflict with Christ, and would certainly not be teaching me (or anyone) to disregard the words and teachings and promises OF Christ, in order to embrace a different teaching.


**

So again, see 'test the inspired expressions' (see the OP).


If a spirit (or person) says something that is against Christ (His words, His teaching, His command), then I can know not to listen; that spirit and/or inspired expression is not from Him.

If a spirit or person suggests that I (or anyone else) reject Christ and His teaching, His word, His invitation, His command - then I know not to listen to them; that spirit and/or suggestion is not from Christ.

One can also ask Christ for the truth of that matter (or any other matter).

On the thread that you are referring to, it was suggested that I reject the teaching of Christ, that I even reject the place being prepared by Christ IN the Father's house. This is in direct conflict with Christ and His word (I mean - come on - these were suggestions to reject Christ and His word and His invitation to be in the Father's house). The source of those suggestions could not have been from Christ (and therefore could not have been from His Father).


Not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. Hence we are told to test the inspired expression. 1John 4:3.


(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true.
So we have a clue as to what this instrument you test difference by that I ask you to produce...but - clearly - while you reference it to imply that it exists, you do not say what that instrument actually is...so how are we to test your claims?
Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)
As should be clear to the reader Tam, we have some idea that you do not resonate with other types of truth and love if they conflict with what you have [somehow] being taught to recognize said conditions...but what makes this "truth and love" you think you have and hold,
'the real deal'?
Christ. His word, His teaching. I'm not sure what you are not understanding about this? Or is it just that you have been shown that something you 'have and hold as the real deal', is not what Christ teaches?

Please note from the OP:

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


and,

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.


If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

From what you have said in your witness as a 'slave of Christ' etc...there is no evidence presented which helps confirm your claim is legitimate.
Somewhere "is it written" [ I think I have read ] along the lines that there will be those who call Christ "Lord" to whom Christ will tell them that he does not know who they are - has never meet them or communed with them and will tell their lying butts to be gone.

How Am I [are we] to know you are not one of those Tam?
A - I am not the one people should be following (I can only point to Christ, bear witness to Him, He is the One you should be following, if indeed you are or desire to be His disciple).

B - Lets have the words in context to get a better understanding:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Is it not the will of His Father that we listen to the Son? Believe in the Son?

C - Test anything that I share against Christ. If I am saying something that is against Christ (against what He says, against the example that He set, against His teaching), then obviously I am the one who is in error, and you should remain in and listen to HIM. But by all means, point what you believe to be error out, so that I may examine myself, turn to my Lord, and correct my error if need be.





Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Does Christ speak and how?

Post #180

Post by William »

tam wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:03 pm
Peace still to you William,
Is that like a magic spell you are casting Tam? No need to incant such, as I have peace already.
Responding to your post about the OP, viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377
He speaks in words.

Words are sounds. So he speaks using sounds.
Words are not necessarily sounds (or at least not audible sounds heard with physical ears).


Pointless semantics Tam.
We can think in words, and words can be written <- neither of those make physically audible sounds. Words spoken from the Spirit (from Christ), are - in my experience - heard within, with spiritual ears. Still a voice - but not one heard with PHYSICAL ears.


Well you have your own interpretation of what that means according to you Tam, but it is here nor there. These words you are reading are reproduced by sound - and if you have issue with my saying so, take it up with The Lord as it was he that said his sheep hear his voice. You claim to be his 'sheep' [and slave] so my question remains as stands, for you to answer or not.
You might have understood (and meant) the same thing, but just in case, I wanted to be clear.
I hear you.
He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of).
Sounds and vision...from what you have shared re your particular relationship with The Lord Tam, giving you a vision would do nothing to enhance your understanding of the true nature of this reality experience.
I think what you might mean here, William, is that giving me a vision (of something) would do nothing to enhance an understanding of what you claim to be the 'true nature of this reality experience'.

On that I believe we are in agreement.
So The Lord is limited as to what he can show you through visions, which would of course explain why you have not had any that you have been aware of.
The best he could do is to give you a vision of what you expect to be truth and love, which limits what the vision can convey.
Says who? Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
It is not a claim. It is a reasonable observation. Perhaps - in that light, you can drop the defensiveness. I am not judging you, I am simply saying that in all cases where an individual does not ask to experience such things, they will not be troubled by The Lord with visions etc which The Lord would know would be too much for them due to their beliefs.
This is in line with my own understanding that in the next phase we will experience whatever we will create for ourselves. How can it be any other way?
Why could it not be any other way (than what is in line with your own understanding)?
Do you not believe that you will experience being with The Lord in your next phase of experience? What does it matter that you create the experience for yourself?
The evidence [already given to you which you rejected as being ''from lying spirits"] shows me that it will be that way. Each individual will create their own reality based upon their personality and attitude [both sub conscious and conscious attitude]. It is a reasonable assumption to make regarding the evidence. There is a lot of evidence circulating nowadays which was obviously suppressed brutally and demonized by the church during its heyday.
What evidence have you provided to show that such experiences [as I have already mentioned] are from 'lying spirits'? None so far. You just argue that your beliefs in the bible tell you that this is the likely the case. You have been asked why you think the stories in the bible are to be believed as genuinely 'from The Lord' while anything either not mentioned in the bible or demonized in the bible, is 'from lying spirits'.
A vision or any communication could certainly be of something real/true (truth is the language that Christ speaks speaks and shares; He does not deceive). Why do you think it could not be?
I am not arguing that Christ deceives. I am arguing that the church is the deceiver and that the bible is one of the main ways in which the church has deceived the world regarding many things, but specifically that to do with the afterlife. What you think is 'the voice of The Lord' is obviously the voice of the church which created the bible. No evidence is given to show that the two work in unison.
He speaks in dreams.
Sounds and vision and experiences...
Words, visions, dreams...
He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.
He uses the individuals brain in order to retrieve past experience relevant to current experience...joining the dots which eventually show the individual the serendipity and synchronicity of nature. "We are within a creation/reality simulation."
Bring to mind - remind.

(and it is this world that contains the lies, the illusions, William. Not the Father's house - and not the Kingdom or world to come when God makes everything new.)
Would you then say that if you created your own reality based upon your personality and beliefs, such will amount to 'lies' Tam?
He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.
What about other books - words and sayi ... why not?
He can, if relevant. That was covered in the previous point re: something read.
If relevant to what Tam? Where it is covered in Christendom's bible?
He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.
Does he use memes and sayings from other religions?
I bolded and underlined the relevant part in my quote.

If they were HIS sayings, then what you ask would apply. If they were not His sayings, then it would not apply.
You do understand that the bible itself claims that The Lord spoke about so much that none of the books in the libraries of the world could contain those things?
Given that Tam, how can you claim that The Lord didn't say such things 'because they are not recorded in the bible'? The bible is just one book, which can comfortable fit in one library as part of a collection of all the other books.
Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.
Does your Lord use all manner of medium in order to convey to you the exactness of what it is he is attempting to communicate with you?
I don't understand your question or its relevance to what I said.
Does The Lord get through to you clearly so that you understand exactly what he is conveying to you and does he use all manner of medium to do so, or is he limited by only being able to use the medium(s?) YOU dictate he should use in relation to your relationship you claim to have with him?
The language that He speaks is truth.

A slave is not free. It is said that The Lord himself told folk that the truth would set them free. Does The Lord use other people to try and assist those who are still enslaved to their beliefs?
Again, I do not see the relevance of your response to my words.
You claim to be a "slave to Christ" - You claim to know "The Truth". You cannot both be a slave and free. If the truth shall set you free, you cannot be a slave. The Truth cannot enslave you.
But as to your point:

1 - what a slave does when granted their freedom is up to them. They are free to make that choice, yes?
If they do not know the truth which sets them free, they would choose to continue being a slave, yes.
2 - Yes, Christ did say that the Truth would set us free. Meaning HE would set us free. He is the Truth WHO sets us free. Compare John 8:32 to John 8:36. Christ also said that if one wishes to be greatest then one must first become LEAST. Just as He also made HIMSELF least (see also Luke 22:26, 27; Matt 20:28), and just as He does the Father's will over His own will. Not out of fear, and not because the Father forces Him, or even because He is not free. But out of LOVE for His Father. He is also the Son of God, and His Father has given Him the highest position (second only to the Father Himself).

Then if HE has not set you free Tam, it must be because you choose not to be, which in turn brings question to your claim he is your Lord.. It could be that you are a slave to a depiction of him [image] which is not true. That you believe it is true, does not in itself mean that it is true.
In that, if you create for yourself a kind of heaven that you expect to experience, then while you will therefore experience your version of who you think The Lord is, it might not be the actual Lord, but just one you have created to fit your own requirements.
And yes, in that Tam, it would be an illusion - a lie - but one you created for yourself through believing stories which were not true.
He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.
Then IF The Lord does use other people as yet another means in which to communicate with you Tam, why do you think your particular understanding of 'the truth' and 'love' is correct enough that you reject their testimony and demonize them, by implying that they are hearing 'lying spirits'? [see our conversation re this LINK]
What evidence have you actually presented in relation to 'lying spirits' influencing people whom you judge as NOT being true and loving [like The Lord] to which clearly shows us that you yourself are NOT the one being influenced by 'lying spirits'?
Christ is the mediator between man and God.


Yet you are a slave to this Christ. Why would The Creator require anyone to mediate between The Creators self and the individual? Did Jesus tell people that The Father was not able to be communicated with and that all communication with The Father had to be vetted through him?
If so, what make this 'The Truth"?
There is no mediator between man and Christ. (Though we can discuss, and sometimes a person may endeavor to expound the truth more accurately to someone else, such as in the case with Priscilla and Aquila to Apollos, see Acts 18:25-27, though this is done in love. Iron sharpening iron and all that).
Yet you specifically use the bible as a mediator between you and your understanding of Christ and afterlife. Any other medium you call "lying spirits'.
But giving your question the benefit of the doubt, if Christ used another person to communicate with me... then that person would not be saying something in conflict with Christ, and would certainly not be teaching me (or anyone) to disregard the words and teachings and promises OF Christ, in order to embrace a different teaching.
Said more succinctly, you are saying that "if it isn't in the bible, then it cannot be from Christ."
Yet there is absolutely nothing at all that can verify that, that is the truth, and as noted, we are informed in the bible that Christ taught so much more than what the bible and every other book could possibly record...so how can you truthfully claim that the way I view what happens in the afterlife, is something Jesus would NOT have said or told others?

The simple, truthful answer is that you cannot, and so you should not make accusations that I am being deceived by 'lying spirits' [re even my own experiences] as these experience could very well be from The Holy Spirit - so tread carefully when making such accusations - so carefully in fact, that you cease making accusations of that sort at all.
So again, see 'test the inspired expressions' (see the OP).
What is to say that my whole perspective is NOT a case of "testing inspired expressions" and finding some, such as your own beliefs in regard to afterlife, questionable and in need of examination?
If a spirit (or person) says something that is against Christ (His words, His teaching, His command), then I can know not to listen; that spirit and/or inspired expression is not from Him.
That is not the case though is it Tam. The bible does not hold but a tiny fraction of what Christ teaches, so to be limited by trusting only in that medium to "tell you what The Lord said", is faulty reasoning, and unreasonable for that. You have no truthful right to make your beliefs superior by your own measure [based upon tiny bible quotes of 'what the lord said'] by demonizing my own life's experience and those many others who have had alternate experiences.
That is clearly deception on your [and the Church and the bible's] part.
If a spirit or person suggests that I (or anyone else) reject Christ and His teaching, His word, His invitation, His command - then I know not to listen to them; that spirit and/or suggestion is not from Christ.
I, as a person, suggest that you reject the habit of referring only to the bible as your source of "What Christ can show and teach you" because I care that you cease demonizing everything else. [other data Christ is said to have taught which the bible does not mention].
One can also ask Christ for the truth of that matter (or any other matter).
Certainly and if I - in the asking - have been shown through personal experience, who are you to claim it has come from a "lying spirit'?
On the thread that you are referring to, it was suggested that I reject the teaching of Christ, that I even reject the place being prepared by Christ IN the Father's house. This is in direct conflict with Christ and His word (I mean - come on - these were suggestions to reject Christ and His word and His invitation to be in the Father's house). The source of those suggestions could not have been from Christ (and therefore could not have been from His Father).
Yet you cannot say WHY you believe that this is in direct conflict with Christ. You claim [along with the Church] that the bible is 'his word'? Christ claims otherwise. Who should I believe. Tam? [the church] Or Jesus?
Not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. Hence we are told to test the inspired expression. 1John 4:3.
Test all things Tam. Including the stories of the bible AND the middle eastern mythologies in particular...these are not exempt from the advice to test ALL things, despite what the church may have so far convinced you.
(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true.
So we have a clue as to what this instrument you test difference by that I ask you to produce...but - clearly - while you reference it to imply that it exists, you do not say what that instrument actually is...so how are we to test your claims?
Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)
As should be clear to the reader Tam, we have some idea that you do not resonate with other types of truth and love if they conflict with what you have [somehow] being taught to recognize said conditions...but what makes this "truth and love" you think you have and hold,
'the real deal'?
Christ.
The being, yes.
His word,


You mean the bible don't you Tam. Why not just admit that?
His teaching.
What do you know of his teaching which is not mentioned in the bible Tam? We all know that bible itself mentions he taught so much more than the bible could possibly contain Tam.
What do you know of these unmentioned teachings of Christ? It appears you are stuck within the confines of only what the bible tells you, and this is why you limit Christ in his being able to teach you those things that the bible does not contain.
I'm not sure what you are not understanding about this? Or is it just that you have been shown that something you 'have and hold as the real deal', is not what Christ teaches?
I myself do not limit The Lord as to what he teaches or how he teaches it to me which is why I do not agree that 'lying spirits' are the source of the data of my individual experience
Please note from the OP:

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
What evidence have you produced regarding that Tam?
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
Do you limit this testimony to only what the bible characters have testified? I do not. Many folk have experienced whom they have understood to be 'The Lord". Should I join your ranks in condemning them as "listeners of lying spirits" or continue being open minded and using my intelligence wisely?
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter
What about the bulk of what Christ taught which was not written on the matter? Are you content with the snippets of information the bible tells you, that you care not to know of the vaster things Christ taught/teaches/is able to teach those who have ears to hear?
For if you are, then that is fine by me. I do not judge you, but do caution you to desist with making claims that 'lying spirits' are at work when it is much more likely Christ showing me what the bible [church] has chosen to conceal from me [and you].

You are free to choose to remain ignorant to those vaster things as you will Tam. You are not free to demonize the things you believe 'are not from Christ' because you believe you cannot/should not know, "because" 'such things were not recorded in the bible'.
If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...
What makes you think I am not communicating respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic? Is it because I disagree with your position on this matter and you find that unacceptable and un-Christlike?
and,

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.
Since you brought in the possibility that I was being deceived by lying spirits Tam, why do you think it impossible YOU are not the one being deceived by such beings? That is a reasonable question to reflect back at you, is it not?
To be clear, I do not say that you are being deceived by lying spirits, but rather by the church which deemed what NOT to include in Christs Teachings and declared that anything NOT in the bible MUST be from lying spirits.
If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.
Yet here you are specifically pointing at the bible and claiming that the bible is the word of Christ! Can you not see your position is unstable in that? The bible does not and cannot hold the Christ in its limiting suppressive manner, no matter what the church tells you.
If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.


Unless of course he wants to do so, and you prevent him from doing so by believing that he does not want to do so. How can you say you are one of his if he has never proven himself to you? That make no logical sense.
From what you have said in your witness as a 'slave of Christ' etc...there is no evidence presented which helps confirm your claim is legitimate.
Somewhere "is it written" [ I think I have read ] along the lines that there will be those who call Christ "Lord" to whom Christ will tell them that he does not know who they are - has never meet them or communed with them and will tell their lying butts to be gone.

How Am I [are we] to know you are not one of those Tam?
A - I am not the one people should be following (I can only point to Christ, bear witness to Him, He is the One you should be following, if indeed you are or desire to be His disciple).


Well so far Tam, all you have really been 'pointing to' is the bible, which we know doesn't really cover much on all there is to know through experience, of The Fathers Kingdom.
B - Lets have the words in context to get a better understanding:
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Is it not the will of His Father that we listen to the Son? Believe in the Son?
Yes - but The Fathers Son is NOT the bible Tam. You cannot say "But Lord, I believed in the bible and what it spoke of you" for the Lord could reply "I did not tell you to do this, depart from me for I do not know you, as surely as you most obviously do not know me"

See?
C - Test anything that I share against Christ. If I am saying something that is against Christ (against what He says, against the example that He set, against His teaching), then obviously I am the one who is in error, and you should remain in and listen to HIM. But by all means, point what you believe to be error out, so that I may examine myself, turn to my Lord, and correct my error if need be.


See the above. If you truly are being genuine, I have provided that information for your examination. How will you 'test' it? By looking to see if the bible has it written? How will you interpret the bible? Is everything you need to know about The Fathers Kingdom, recorded in the bible? No. So how else are you going to test my words? Ask Jesus to show you - to give you an experience of The Fathers Kingdom? Or trust that the bible has all the information you require on that subject?

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