Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 20 by Clownboat]

Clownboat, the question was 'how does one hear Christ'.

The response was, 'if you truly want to hear him'... then do (a,b,c).


If you are unwilling to do those things... if you consider them to be a waste of time, or if they are too foolish for you to do... then don't do them. It is as simple as that.


I answered a question asked of me, with what I have learned from my Lord and from my experience. That is all.

**

Now there is something that you have said, that some other atheists have said, which I have always found quite odd.

You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).

What makes you think a person of faith has not done 'due diligence'? Because they have come to a different conclusion than you have? Because they cannot prove it to you?

The fact is, you are convinced that your specific god concept is true. Will you be intellectually honest and now believe in alien visits or Big Foot because others have chosen to believe that they are truly real? I assume you will not believe in alien visits or Big Foot until you are fist shown that they are real to begin with.

I do not have a god concept; and I don't know how you can read this thread, or even this page and not realize what - or rather who - I say my faith is based upon.

Certainly my faith is not based upon others believing God is real. In that case, the question would be... which others? Which God?

So there is no intellectual dishonesty involved in not believing in Big Foot just because others believe in Big Foot. Nor am I telling any of you that you should believe just because I believe.

I truly believe that if you lived in Iran and you asked Allah to give you ears to hear, you would be claiming to speak to Mohammed right now.

Notice how even if I truly wanted to believe that this above was true, that it doesn't/wouldn't affect whether it really is true or not.

Of course not. But who is saying if someone truly believes something, that something must be true?

Therefore, truly wanting to believe does not make a concept true. Having a desire for something to be true does not affect the thing in question being true or not. Even if this thing is one of the many available god concepts.

I never stated otherwise, Clownboat.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[H.sapiens]

If you truly want to come to Christ, then ask for that. If you truly want ears to hear, then ask that you be given them. That you may hear Christ.

What I want, as a skeptical unbeliever, is to know the truth. I do not and in fact cannot want to come to Christ, since at this moment in time, I am not convinced there is a Christ. There's all sorts of people in the real world I want to come to, to meet and talk to, but that is because I acknowledge and am convinced that they are real. There are also some fictional characters I would like to meet, but in all seriousness not really want to, since I am not convinced they are real.

Then why are you responding to this particular discussion?

Please note the opening words:

If you truly want...


If you don't truly want, then how can what follows the words, 'if you truly want', apply to you?



Peace to you dear Rik,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam,
A person could truly want to believe in Santa, but until the Santa concept is shown to be real, it would be foolish to truly want to believe in a concept that might be false to begin with.

Every god concept is possible.
Big Foot is possible.
Loch Ness (Nelly) is possible.
Should we believe in any of these concepts, or would it be prudent to first learn if they are real or not?

I would want to learn first. You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?). Keep in mind, humans can even convince themselves that they love a person that has kidnapped them. We have an amazing ability as humans to convince ourselves.

The fact is, you are convinced that your specific god concept is true. Will you be intellectually honest and now believe in alien visits or Big Foot because others have chosen to believe that they are truly real? I assume you will not believe in alien visits or Big Foot until you are fist shown that they are real to begin with.

I truly believe that if you lived in Iran and you asked Allah to give you ears to hear, you would be claiming to speak to Mohammed right now.

Notice how even if I truly wanted to believe that this above was true, that it doesn't/wouldn't affect whether it really is true or not.

Therefore, truly wanting to believe does not make a concept true. Having a desire for something to be true does not affect the thing in question being true or not. Even if this thing is one of the many available god concepts.

Actually population genetics combined with the lack of observations (that imply tiny population size) indicates that neither Bigfoot nor Nessie exist. The size of a population required for even minimal genetic diversity is at least 100 individuals. There are so few sightings, that the possibility that either animal actually exists and remains unseen is passing small.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 20 by Clownboat]

Clownboat, the question was 'how does one hear Christ'.

The response was, 'if you truly want to hear him'... then do (a,b,c).


If you are unwilling to do those things... if you consider them to be a waste of time, or if they are too foolish for you to do... then don't do them. It is as simple as that.

I disagree, and here is why. First let me list 'a,b,c' from your OP:
a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter

Please explain how I or anyone can do 'A - C'. Thank you.

Now there is something that you have said, that some other atheists have said, which I have always found quite odd.

I'm an atheists now?

You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).

What makes you think a person of faith has not done 'due diligence'? Because they have come to a different conclusion than you have? Because they cannot prove it to you?

Because after having been a born again, spirit filled, street evangelizing Christian for over 2 decades, my experiences tell me that. I'm also aware, as should you that most people have religious beliefs based off of geography. Do you honestly think you would be a Christian if you were born and lived in Iran? I'm an odds guy, so I believe you would be a Muslim. If religious believers did their due diligence, then geography would not be the deciding factor for most.

The fact is, you are convinced that your specific god concept is true. Will you be intellectually honest and now believe in alien visits or Big Foot because others have chosen to believe that they are truly real? I assume you will not believe in alien visits or Big Foot until you are fist shown that they are real to begin with.

I do not have a god concept; and I don't know how you can read this thread, or even this page and not realize what - or rather who - I say my faith is based upon.

Is your god concept not the Christ that you claim speaks to you? This question is rhetorical by the way.

So there is no intellectual dishonesty involved in not believing in Big Foot just because others believe in Big Foot. Nor am I telling any of you that you should believe just because I believe.

Please pay attention to your words:
"If you truly want to come to Christ,"

How can a person truly want to come to Christ, Big Foot or alien encounters if they are not first shown to be real?
If 'truly wanting' had anything to do with it, then what do you have to say to the people that believe in Big Foot? I assume they have a want to believe for some reason. How is having a want important for Christ, but not for Big Foot? It doesn't seem that you are being intellectually honest about this.

I truly believe that if you lived in Iran and you asked Allah to give you ears to hear, you would be claiming to speak to Mohammed right now.

Notice how even if I truly wanted to believe that this above was true, that it doesn't/wouldn't affect whether it really is true or not.

Of course not. But who is saying if someone truly believes something, that something must be true?

No one that I'm aware of, even though you have now alluded to it twice. What you did say was: "If you truly want to come to Christ"
So I ask you, what does truly wanting something have to do with anything? I can truly want Big Foot to be real. I can also truly want to come to Christ. What I cannot do is figure out why you invented this "you must truly want Christ" first idea, nor why such an idea would have any merit.

Therefore, truly wanting to believe does not make a concept true. Having a desire for something to be true does not affect the thing in question being true or not. Even if this thing is one of the many available god concepts.

I never stated otherwise, Clownboat.

Great, now please explain why a person must 'truly want Christ' first.
We seem to agree that truly wanting something has zero bearing on whether such a thing exists, yet when it comes to Christ, you claim you must first truly want to come to Christ. It is all very odd claims IMO.

(Signature cut out because it belittles those who actually suffer from slavery).

[Clownboat]

If you truly want to come to Christ, then ask for that. If you truly want ears to hear, then ask that you be given them. That you may hear Christ.

What I want, as a skeptical unbeliever, is to know the truth. I do not and in fact cannot want to come to Christ, since at this moment in time, I am not convinced there is a Christ. There's all sorts of people in the real world I want to come to, to meet and talk to, but that is because I acknowledge and am convinced that they are real. There are also some fictional characters I would like to meet, but in all seriousness not really want to, since I am not convinced they are real.

Then why are you responding to this particular discussion?

Please note the opening words:

If you truly want...


If you don't truly want, then how can what follows the words, 'if you truly want', apply to you?



Peace to you dear Rik,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam,
A person could truly want to believe in Santa, but until the Santa concept is shown to be real, it would be foolish to truly want to believe in a concept that might be false to begin with.

Every god concept is possible.
Big Foot is possible.
Loch Ness (Nelly) is possible.
Should we believe in any of these concepts, or would it be prudent to first learn if they are real or not?

I would want to learn first. You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?). Keep in mind, humans can even convince themselves that they love a person that has kidnapped them. We have an amazing ability as humans to convince ourselves.

The fact is, you are convinced that your specific god concept is true. Will you be intellectually honest and now believe in alien visits or Big Foot because others have chosen to believe that they are truly real? I assume you will not believe in alien visits or Big Foot until you are fist shown that they are real to begin with.

I truly believe that if you lived in Iran and you asked Allah to give you ears to hear, you would be claiming to speak to Mohammed right now.

Notice how even if I truly wanted to believe that this above was true, that it doesn't/wouldn't affect whether it really is true or not.

Therefore, truly wanting to believe does not make a concept true. Having a desire for something to be true does not affect the thing in question being true or not. Even if this thing is one of the many available god concepts.

Actually population genetics combined with the lack of observations (that imply tiny population size) indicates that neither Bigfoot nor Nessie exist. The size of a population required for even minimal genetic diversity is at least 100 individuals. There are so few sightings, that the possibility that either animal actually exists and remains unseen is passing small.

You may be discounting living for a really, really, really long time. Perhaps Big Foot and Nessie are tens of thousands of years old and they are the last of a large population.

Scratch that, this just reminded me of trying to make sense of my religious beliefs from many years ago.

What if I really, really, really wanted Big Foot to be real?
What difference does it make if a person really, really, really wants Christ to be real?
I would think none, yet some Christians claim that you must first want it real bad.

I just don't see how wanting it bad would affect anything besides the ability to self indoctrinate.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 16 by tam]

Tam,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

It seems to me that what you are saying is: in order to believe that Christ speaks to me, I have to believe that he exists. But in order for me to believe he exists, I would need a reason (a very good one) to believe he exists, such as prayer working or him speaking to me. So, how do I (or anyone for that matter) escape the circular logic?

As Riku said earlier, I'd like the find the truth first.

It makes no sense to me to just believe something because someone says so to. In fact, I'd suggest that doing so is a very bad idea.

all the best

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 24 by Clownboat]

The longest lived reptile was an Aldabra giant tortoise, died at an estimated age of 255 in March 2006 in Alipore Zoo, Kolkata, India. The oldest known mammal was a Bowhead Whale that was was at least 211 years old. Even with a 200 year life span, a minimum population of 100, or so, is required. If you want to invoke remnant status, were are the bones and signs of the larger earlier population? Doesn't add up.

[tam]

I disagree, and here is why. First let me list 'a,b,c' from your OP:
a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter

Please explain how I or anyone can do 'A - C'. Thank you.

Clownboat, you quoted the part of this thread in which I responded to Kenru asking how he could hear Christ.

That question did not refer to whether or not Christs speaks... but how one would hear Him (assuming that He is alive and does speak).

Now there is something that you have said, that some other atheists have said, which I have always found quite odd.

I'm an atheists now?

Are you not?

Clownboat said: You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).

TAm said: What makes you think a person of faith has not done 'due diligence'? Because they have come to a different conclusion than you have? Because they cannot prove it to you?

Clownboat said: Because after having been a born again, spirit filled, street evangelizing Christian for over 2 decades, my experiences tell me that.

How does that make you an expert on anyone other than you? I am not what you once were, no matter how much you seem to want to place me in that category. And according to your own words, you were never spirit filled, because, again according to your own words, there is no spirit that exists to have filled you.

I'm also aware, as should you that most people have religious beliefs based off of geography. Do you honestly think you would be a Christian if you were born and lived in Iran? I'm an odds guy, so I believe you would be a Muslim. If religious believers did their due diligence, then geography would not be the deciding factor for most.

I am not an 'odds' guy. Even so, 'odds' would be that there IS a God or spiritual realm of some sort, that inspired people of all cultures and all times to seek out the spiritual. Rather than it just be some random thing that all cultures in all times have just happened to believe in.


There are Christians in other parts of the world. There are also people who grow up in one religion and switch it later to a different religion after doing 'due diligence' (or for some other reason); and there are some who just get out of religion altogether but who have faith; and there are some who grow up religious and become atheists.


So while it may be rare, people can and do reject what they were born into and/or what is popular. But just because you happened to be born into a place where Christ is believed upon, does not mean that is a valid reason that you should reject that belief.

Search for what is true - regardless of whether you grew up in it or not. I reject Christendom, and most of the doctrines of that religion that are taught to be mainstream. But I do belong to Christ, and hear and follow Him.

I might be a muslim (if only on the surface) if I were born into a Muslim county that did not allow one TO choose, or give one an opportunity to freely learn other faiths as well. But then, that same thing would apply to you.

But I do not live in such a place. I live where many different faiths/non-faiths are acceptable and able to be explored.

The fact is, you are convinced that your specific god concept is true. Will you be intellectually honest and now believe in alien visits or Big Foot because others have chosen to believe that they are truly real? I assume you will not believe in alien visits or Big Foot until you are fist shown that they are real to begin with.

I do not have a god concept; and I don't know how you can read this thread, or even this page and not realize what - or rather who - I say my faith is based upon.

Is your god concept not the Christ that you claim speaks to you? This question is rhetorical by the way.

My God is the Father of Christ. My Lord is Christ.

Neither of them are a concept. I understand that to you they are a concept, but why should I use the language of a person who does not know them, to describe them?

So there is no intellectual dishonesty involved in not believing in Big Foot just because others believe in Big Foot. Nor am I telling any of you that you should believe just because I believe.

Please pay attention to your words:
"If you truly want to come to Christ,"

How can a person truly want to come to Christ, Big Foot or alien encounters if they are not first shown to be real?
If 'truly wanting' had anything to do with it, then what do you have to say to the people that believe in Big Foot? I assume they have a want to believe for some reason. How is having a want important for Christ, but not for Big Foot? It doesn't seem that you are being intellectually honest about this.

Perhaps it seems that way to you because you jumped into a conversation that was a specific response to a specific question asked. Which question was not... 'how do I know Christ is real'... but instead WAS... "how do I hear Christ'.

CB wrote: I truly believe that if you lived in Iran and you asked Allah to give you ears to hear, you would be claiming to speak to Mohammed right now.

Notice how even if I truly wanted to believe that this above was true, that it doesn't/wouldn't affect whether it really is true or not.

Tam wrote: Of course not. But who is saying if someone truly believes something, that something must be true?

CB wrote: No one that I'm aware of, even though you have now alluded to it twice. What you did say was: "If you truly want to come to Christ"
So I ask you, what does truly wanting something have to do with anything? I can truly want Big Foot to be real. I can also truly want to come to Christ. What I cannot do is figure out why you invented this "you must truly want Christ" first idea, nor why such an idea would have any merit.

You are equating truly wanting someone to be real - to - truly wanting to come to someone. Truly wanting to come to someone assumes at least the possibility that this someone is real.

If you do not truly want something, why would you ask for it?

If you don't really want what you have asked for, the Spirit will know because you will resist Him. You might still receive what you have asked for, but it might be wise to be sure that you want what it is you are asking for.

Note that the second part of the a,b,c (as to the question Ken asked) was for you to prove yourself... if you truly want to know Christ and God, to hear Christ, then you will do what they have said to do. And if you are not willing to do that, then did you truly want to know them? If you are not willing to do what they have said to do in order to receive what you have asked for, why should you receive what you have asked for?



With few exceptions that I know of(Paul/Saul), if you do not truly want to hear Him, and that means if you do not truly want to know Truth, then you will not. My Lord does not force Himself upon people. He comes to those who seek Him. Hence, seek, knock, ask.



Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 24 by Clownboat]

The longest lived reptile was an Aldabra giant tortoise, died at an estimated age of 255 in March 2006 in Alipore Zoo, Kolkata, India. The oldest known mammal was a Bowhead Whale that was was at least 211 years old. Even with a 200 year life span, a minimum population of 100, or so, is required. If you want to invoke remnant status, were are the bones and signs of the larger earlier population? Doesn't add up.

I was just being silly.
I don't believe that a Nessie exists.

Did you know that scientist discovered Big Foot though and that it is actually blurry! All this time we blamed the cameras/photographers.

I kid about BF and Nessie both of course.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 16 by tam]

Tam,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

It seems to me that what you are saying is: in order to believe that Christ speaks to me, I have to believe that he exists. But in order for me to believe he exists, I would need a reason (a very good one) to believe he exists, such as prayer working or him speaking to me. So, how do I (or anyone for that matter) escape the circular logic?

I do not speak for Tam but to point out that many Christians believe that they were compelled by the grace of GOD to come to belief while is a state of rejection and resistance...

Support for this is found in the story of the Saul to Paul conversion and in my own experience in which I could only recognize the work of GOD for me and the words of GOD in my thoughts in hindsight after I gave up resisting.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 24 by Clownboat]

The longest lived reptile was an Aldabra giant tortoise, died at an estimated age of 255 in March 2006 in Alipore Zoo, Kolkata, India. The oldest known mammal was a Bowhead Whale that was was at least 211 years old. Even with a 200 year life span, a minimum population of 100, or so, is required. If you want to invoke remnant status, were are the bones and signs of the larger earlier population? Doesn't add up.

I was just being silly.
I don't believe that a Nessie exists.

Did you know that scientist discovered Big Foot though and that it is actually blurry! All this time we blamed the cameras/photographers.

I kid about BF and Nessie both of course.

I know that, I was just using the opportunity to take a common meme and show how basic scientific knowledge falsifies it.