Heaven

Getting to know more about a specific belief

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William
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Heaven

Post #1

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote:
William wrote:Are you saying that being annihilated is being held accountable for ones actions?

What kind of actions do you regard through your beliefs to being ones which require the individual is annihilated?
I am saying annihilation is holding one accountable to their choices in life. The choice that would bring about annihilation (or the alternative of everlasting hell) is the free will refusal to submit to God and live life as our own god. When we become self centered we cause problems for those around us. I do not think God will allow that to infect eternity.
My question has to do with those who believe in the idea of heaven.

The above quotes from another thread got me thinking about what it is about heaven which is different from earth, based on the doctrine that here on earth one has 'ample time' to make a belief-based decision and that if one chooses not to, then it is 'too late' and an alternative to heaven becomes the destiny of such individuals.

What is it about heaven which is different from earth where belief no longer enters into the equation?

Generically the idea of heaven and going there after your body has died on earth is dependent upon belief and that heaven is the reward of that belief.

So what is it one would expect to be different in heaven which is absent in the physical universe, which would convince you if you didn't already believe?

Specifically this question is for those who believe in heaven as the ultimate reward for belief. It is not intended as something to debate.

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W

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Re: Heaven

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by William]

We, Jehovah's Witnesses believe heaven is inhabited by spirits (non-physical intelligent beings, that do not procreate and are not gender bound) and that earth is for physical beings that need to eat, physical food etc and are phyically limited.

That's the main difference.


So what is it one would expect to be different in heaven which is absent in the physical universe, which would convince you if you didn't already believe?


I don't quite understand the question, "convince me" of what?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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William
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Re: Heaven

Post #3

Post by William »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

The question is related to the quote from member The Tanager in the OP and also the members opinion that one lifetime on earth is 'plenty of time' to support the Christian idea of GOD or be punished by eternal torment hell-fire damnation or annihilation for NOT supporting it.

So I am wondering what it is about heaven which is different from earth, since heaven is the reward and hell or annihilation is the punishment.

My own thinking sees the whole belief system of 'heaven-or-hell-make-your-choice' as rather juvenile and short sighted, in relation to my idea of GOD, and the complexity creation of the physical universe.
We, Jehovah's Witnesses believe heaven is inhabited by spirits (non-physical intelligent beings, that do not procreate and are not gender bound) and that earth is for physical beings that need to eat, physical food etc and are phyically limited.

That's the main difference.


So therein it might be agreed that the idea of heaven is an appealing alternative to the drudgery (in comparison) of earthly limitation.

Your particular description does not include any mention of the Christian idea of GOD being present in that heaven.
The reason given as to why hell and damnation or annihilation as punishments imposed upon the individual for not believing in the Christian idea of GOD is that one a single human lifetime should be a sufficient period of time in which to make the belief-based choice. Once a person dies and is exposed to this other reality 'heaven' it is 'too late' to now make a choice and thus the only alternative is a torturous hell and damnation or annihilation.

So - in light of your own beliefs, heaven is a place where ghosts reside and in that I wonder how the presence of spirits (non-physical intelligent beings, that do not procreate and are not gender bound) would be enough to convince the individual that the Christian idea of GOD is, in fact, real and truthful.

In relation to your own religious doctrines about heaven, does GOD reside in this place and if so, how would one expect to 'see' this GOD and thus have ones faith-based beliefs rewarded?

This is essentially why I created the thread - to see if a broader picture of heaven can be obtained and how different it is to the reality of earth and the universe we currently are experiencing.

My own understanding of what most likely happens when and individual dies can be read here;

♦ My thoughts on death.Image

And also here, where I expand on this idea;

♦ The Earth EntityImage

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Post #4

Post by paarsurrey1 »

There are two things:

~Belief in One-True-God whom Jesus believed in (not the Pauline-Christianity-Jesus-God or Trinity) and believing the prophets/messengers.
~Doing the appropriate good deeds as per the occasion and commandments of the One-True-God.

The reward is in this world as well as in the heaven.
Right, please?

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Post #5

Post by William »

[Replying to post 4 by paarsurrey1]

The question is this:

So what is it one would expect to be different in heaven which is absent in the physical universe, which would convince you if you didn't already believe?

Your answers are more related to what you believe you have to do in order to get into heaven.

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Post #6

Post by paarsurrey1 »

William wrote: [Replying to post 4 by paarsurrey1]

The question is this:

So what is it one would expect to be different in heaven which is absent in the physical universe, which would convince you if you didn't already believe?

Your answers are more related to what you believe you have to do in order to get into heaven.
It is totally a different dimension:

[2:26] And give glad tidings to those who believe and do good works, that for them are Gardens beneath which flow streams. Whenever they are given a portion of fruit therefrom, they will say: ‘This is what was given us before,’ and gifts mutually resembling shall be brought to them. And they will have therein mates perfectly pure, and therein will they abide.
[2:27] Allah disdains not to give an illustration as small as a gnat or even smaller. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord, while those who disbelieve say: ‘What does Allah mean by such an illustration?’ Many does He adjudge by it to be erring and many by it does He guide, and none does He adjudge thereby to be erring except the disobedient,
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... 2&verse=25

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Post #7

Post by William »

[Replying to post 6 by paarsurrey1]
It is totally a different dimension:
Yes - but how would such a thing convince you that GOD exists and that your beliefs about GOD are correct?

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Post #8

Post by paarsurrey1 »

William wrote: [Replying to post 6 by paarsurrey1]
It is totally a different dimension:
Yes - but how would such a thing convince you that GOD exists and that your beliefs about GOD are correct?
It is not difficult to know that God exists. He does exist but there is no compulsion to believe in Him:

[2:256] Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.
[2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[2:258] Allah is the friend of those who believe: He brings them out of every kind of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the transgressors who bring them out of light into every kind of darkness. These are the inmates of the Fire; therein shall they abide.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... &verse=256

The One-True-God wants that people should believe in Him from His clear and evident signs and with wisdom. Right, please?
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Post #9

Post by William »

[Replying to post 8 by paarsurrey1]
It is not difficult to know that God exists. He does exist but there is no compulsion to believe in Him:
You and I and many others may have no difficulty in acknowledging that, but.

1: This obviously does not bring us together as one in body mind soul spirit etc et al, because our theologies are too different for this to happen.
Thus - it is no help to those who do not have the same ability to understand that GOD exists...thus we effectively are the anomaly within the idea that GOD should be able to be seen in the creation...since we theists are also part of that creation but are traditionally enemies. Well not all of us, but enough of us (generically speaking) to create the anomaly.

Following the trail back to the OP and to the discussion which prompted me to create this thread, your replies so far have been largely besides the point in relation to that.

In this case, the idea of heaven is associated with the amount of time on this planet a person has in order to make a decision - I say it is not possible for most in one life time to achieve, other than grabbing onto the first or most attractive theology we can (related to this idea) and going with that in faith rather than in knowledge.

It assumes that GOD requires us to have faith in order to get into heaven and if not, we are either doomed to an eternal torment or annihilated.

My gripe with that is, as a thinking caring human being I cannot imagine a just, maturely intelligent GOD doing such a thing and thus think there is far more to the process than that rather juvenile belief system of heaven and hell permits.

So my question in the OP relates to this as a way of challenging the belief by asking that if a lifetime is more than enough for an individual to work it out, and too bad for others who don't, then what about heaven is different from earth which will fulfill the promises of faith rewarded?

Is one expecting to see GOD in a way that is any different from how one sees GOD from the perspective of being earthbound?

Or - does it matter that you see GOD or not, as the point would be that you made it to heaven based on your faith alone? (but also apparently based on you seeing GOD while on earth - in the actual creation itself.)

And even in that, others of different faiths also share that heaven for the same reason, so how do you reconcile that with not agreeing with one another on the true nature of GOD in the first place? (see 1: )

I think it is a far better - more complete - understanding of GOD as allowing as much time and space as necessary for each individual to 'come home' so to speak.

I share more on this idea here;

♦ My thoughts on death.Image

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Post #10

Post by paarsurrey1 »

[Replying to post 9 by William]
William
In this case, the idea of heaven is associated with the amount of time on this planet a person has in order to make a decision - I say it is not possible for most in one life time to achieve, other than grabbing onto the first or most attractive theology we can (related to this idea) and going with that in faith rather than in knowledge.
A life time is enough to start treading on the right path, then the intention counts in the eye of our Lord the One-True-God as:

[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path —
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... r.php?ch=1

One has started treading on the right path, but one dies the next moment one has started treading on it, one never knew one would die, so one's intention is regarded as an act or deed in such case and is rewarded by the Lord who is Master of the Day of Judgment. with mercy. Please
Regards

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