Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Getting to know more about a specific belief

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10475
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1128 times
Contact:

Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #1

Post by William »

Hi - this is a question for all who believe in doctrine relative to what I describe below.

Yesterday I got a pamphlet off a Jehovah's Witness...more about that here;

♦ The Supernatural and the BibleImage

... and long story short, the time before the physical universe is specific to non physical beings existing and when GOD decided to create the physical universe ALL the angels rejoiced.

But then something happened which made some of the angels stop rejoicing, and not only that, but openly rebel against Jehovah/YHWH/Adonai/The Lord etc...

Can anyone tell me why they stopped rejoicing - and/or point me to the relevant writ where I can read for myself?

It seems to be missing data which is very important to the whole story. Missing, the story remains incomplete.

Thanks.

W

eta

I googled "why did the angels stop rejoicing?" and drew a blank. Googling "why did the angels rebel against GOD?" seems to have more data...

So far nothing specific to answering the question. Its seems to revolve around Satan wanting to be like or replace GOD, but this does not align with why the angels stopped rejoicing either during or shortly after the creation of the physical universe.

At least, not as far as I can tell.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10475
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1128 times
Contact:

Post #11

Post by William »

I think also that it is best to stick to the assumption that the physical universe was created before the angelic rebellion since in all fairness there is nothing to show otherwise.

I get the impression in the story that the physical universe was created for a purpose, not just for show.

I also don't subscribe to the notion that GOD-consciousness is separate from any other consciousness, but rather it is the essential ingredient to energizing and animating spiritual and physical forms in which to experience through.

I think perhaps the rebellion may have been sparked by GOD saying to Lucifer that he and a number of other angels had been chosen to inhabit the physical universe which had recently been created for just that purpose, and Lucifer did not like the idea at all and perhaps even thought it beneath him and this cast doubt sufficient to start the growth of rebellion.

The rebellion took hold, and wouldn't you know it! GOD had already created a perfect place where that rebellion could play out as necessary - to its eventual conclusion. Talk about foresight!

:D

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #12

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote: [Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

This interpretation presupposes that the rejoicing happened before the fall of Satan and his rebellion...
There is no reason yet given as to why one cannot presuppose this as being the case. More to the point, since the information is vital, IF Satan and the other angels were not present to witness the creation of the physical universe, there seems no reason why this would not have been mentioned, even for the sake of clarity.
here are certainly many big gaps in our knowledge and a few logical ways to interpret what we do know.


The knowledge itself (in this instance) comes from the stories in the bible themselves, so therein the 'big gaps' are in the stories.
I contend that the creation of the physical universe came AFTER the Satanic rebellion. For this I turn to Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. which basically tells us that every person created in the image of GOD has seen THE PROOF OF HIS DEITY AND POWER so that when they are charged in court they will have no excuse and will be justly condemned.
I do not immediately see the connection between this verse and the Satanic rebellion, as the verse clearly speaks about human beings within the physical universe, and in that - apparently - we humans are able to ascertain (see) the true nature of GOD.

(I have no comment to make regarding condemnation as this thread topic is focused upon the Supernatural and questions regarding Angels and Demons in relation to that.)
The crux of this doctrine rests upon the meaning of "have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made," as pertaining to our looking at the universe as we see it as humans OR as pertaining to us seeing the actual creation of the physical universe before our very eyes, ...
Are you suggesting that we were the angels who witnessed the creation of the physical universe and applauded/rejoiced over it?
...we having been created in the spirit world Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.
Do you have references from the bible to this theology? It suggests that we are supernatural beings ourselves (being spirit). Also, we have examples in the bible as to how GOD supposedly placed us within human form. Do you have references which explain how GOD created us in Sheol? As in - what method did GOD use to create conscious spirit beings. Also - were angels created in Sheol as well or some other place?
Every person who ever lived has experienced this proof, but when we look for evidence of this understanding in human culture we see no evidence of it. Everyone in all of creation supposedly gets this knowledge from looking at nature but no one has ever spoken of it to anyone else - it is the best kept secret in the universe! In fact 95 % of humanity looks at reality and understands things quite different from YHWH's deity and power.
I don't agree with you in the sense that it is clear to me that most cultures actually DO have ideas of GOD within them...some are even similar to the idea of the GOD of Israel.
Apart from that, you speak as if you understand precisely what this evidence is that 95% humanity are blind to.
Even so, I will not inquire as to what this evidence is that you see, not only because it doesn't appear to be immediately relevant to the thread topic, but also because your habit NOT to answer questions put to you when it suits you not to has taught me not to bother asking. Perhaps if and when it suits you, you can place such answers in your members notes - or if you already have done so, just link me to them and I will go read for myself.

The rest of your comments in your post are not directly relevant to the thread topic, as the topic is not about condemnation and hell, and I do not wish the topic to change course from its intended path to that degree. I want to stay focused upon the reason why some of the angels rebelled, chose to create trouble for humans, were permitted by YHWH to do so, and how it is possible for spiritual beings (sons of GOD as they are referred to) to mate with physical beings. Stuff like that...directly to do with subject post I linked to in the OP.

Thanks.

W

eta - [an aside] when I observe nature and the universe I do not 'see' the same idea of GOD as you do. Indeed, when I read about YHWH I do not 'see' the same being as you profess YHWH to be.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #13

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote: [Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]
I contend that the creation of the physical universe came AFTER the Satanic rebellion. For this I turn to Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. which basically tells us that every person created in the image of GOD has seen THE PROOF OF HIS DEITY AND POWER so that when they are charged in court they will have no excuse and will be justly condemned.
I do not immediately see the connection between this verse and the Satanic rebellion, as the verse clearly speaks about human beings within the physical universe, and in that - apparently - we humans are able to ascertain (see) the true nature of GOD.
My connection is that it describes people (but not humans yet as humans are a manifestation of the physical universe which they saw being created), who see the true nature of GOD which would overwhelm our freewill! It would coerce us to follow HIM and it would constrain us from ever rebelling against HIM.

It is my contention that such a destructive force against our free will can never have happened before we made our choices about accepting HIS claims to deity or rejecting HIM as a false GOD. It is an absolute necessity that the Satanic rebellion was a product of their free will so it is obvious to me that the rebellion happened before HE gave proof of HIS deity AFTER they rebelled.

The time flow in my scenario is:
- GOD made everyone - all spirits in HIS image
- we then chose for HIM or against HiS claims to be our GOD
- GOD then created the physical universe
- and sent any who had rebelled against HIM at all to Prison Earth
...we having been created in the spirit world Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.
Do you have references from the bible to this theology?
To say HUMANS RETURN TO SHEOL implies that they came from Sheol where there are no humans but only spirits: Ps 9:17 The wicked do RETURN to Sheol...

And the doctrine that at our resurrection we will be restored to our unsullied image of GOD is likened to becoming like the angels which equates the human spirit with the angelic, the only difference being that they chose to become holy while we chose to besmirch HIS image in us by choosing sin.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #14

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote: eta - [an aside] when I observe nature and the universe I do not 'see' the same idea of GOD as you do. Indeed, when I read about YHWH I do not 'see' the same being as you profess YHWH to be.
And it is precisely this truth that if nature is the proof that is so overwhelming so no one has an excuse, it does not measure up! NATURE does NOT prove YHWH's deity and power in any way at all as proven by the many gods and non-gods being worshiped in nature. I am NOT reiterating the orthodox meaning of this verse as referring to nature!

The proof of GOD that destroys all excuses MUST BE of another level altogether...on the level of our watching the creation of the physical universe! Your experience as expressed in this paragraph perfectly supports my contention.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #15

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote: The overall point being, that wherever we get our information, we need to not simply accept it on faith, but rather through critical thinking and logical processes which best fit the pieces of the puzzle together.
Excellent!

Now, I have applied this kind of thinking to understand the thoughts of Satan...not specifically but as speaking to his purpose and why hell is the only answer:
William wrote: [Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]
He rejected YHWH's claims to be our GOD believing him to be a liar and ego-maniacle manipulator. Part of his faith in this unproven position was his belief that he was as good or even better than anyone else so YHWH could not be above him.
I have seen no biblical reference to Lucifer thinking of YHWH as you describe above. Can you link me to any?
Satan / Lucifer must have been speaking and acting along these lines so as to be engaging in the one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is, ascribing GOD's claims and powers to be from evil which is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is the only thinking that necessitates hell as the only response and all Satan's people, the people of the evil one that the devil sows into the world are so condemned already by their free will, Jn 3:18. To end in hell, one must have sinned the unforgivable sin of ascribing YHWH's motives to evil or they would be saved!
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10475
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1128 times
Contact:

Mirror Mirror

Post #16

Post by William »

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]

As I explained in post # 8
The rest of your comments in your post are not directly relevant to the thread topic, as the topic is not about condemnation and hell, and I do not wish the topic to change course from its intended path to that degree. I want to stay focused upon the reason why some of the angels rebelled, chose to create trouble for humans, were permitted by YHWH to do so, and how it is possible for spiritual beings (sons of GOD as they are referred to) to mate with physical beings. Stuff like that...directly to do with subject post I linked to in the OP.
I can see by your particular take on things that your theology is built around the concept of HELL, so without HELL, your theology doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of critical thinking and logic - which is essentially WHY you cannot stay within the focus I mention in the above quote.

My focus is on the questions I have asked and no one involved within any of Christendoms many sects seems able to answer because their whole belief systems revolve around the separation of GOD-Consciousness from all other consciousnesses, even that within the bible there is more than enough hint that it is GOD-consciousness which animates all forms - be they spiritual or physical.
The time flow in my scenario is:
- GOD made everyone - all spirits in HIS image
Please explain as succinctly as possible exactly what you believe this means.

Given that GOD is regarded as Spirit, this should signify that there is no difference between GOD as spirit and all other spirits, as all spirit derives from the one Spirit. It does not say that GOD gathered 'spirits' from other sources unconnected with GOD.

(In other words, the bible does not say that GOD gathers consciousnesses from other sources unconnected with GOD.)

This is also connected to the story of that GOD 'breathing life' into the form of Adam. This symbolically signifies that Adam was an aspect of GOD-life (consciousness/spirit) within human form.
- we then chose for HIM or against HiS claims to be our GOD
This implies that this was the reason why GOD placed aspects of Itself (sorry but I find it a strictly human construct to apply gender to GOD) into forms of varying densities.

I find it more appropriate to think that GOD places aspects of Itself (supernatural) into forms of varying densities for the purpose of experience.

(There is also a process to this, which I expand upon in the topic linked below;)

♦ The Earth EntityImage

GOD (First Source) doe this, NOT because GOD wanted to be seen to be the object of worship by aspects of itself which were - through the properties of those forms of varying densities - cut off from that immediate knowledge.
To my understanding, such a theology studied from a neutral position rather than from a position of belief, manifests in the mind of the student, an idea of a vain-glorious being, which of course accompanies the immaturity of the juvenile.
Which is also to say that such a theology is, naturally enough, supported by the same types of individuals.

The more mature approach is to understand that GOD placed aspects of Itself into forms of varying densities in order to create individual beings who could share in the experience of being individual - together.
An illusion - but not one intended in the first instance, to rid GOD of Its 'undesirable' aspects.

The 'undesirable' aspects came about/made their appearance through that process but were then understood to being par for the course and non-permanent at that.
- GOD then created the physical universe
Which is a different density to the spiritual realm which came before and the spiritual realm - according to the story -has already begun to show signs of an undesirable reaction through some of the spiritual (supernatural) forms - form which are less dense than forms of the physical realm.

[To note: "Supernatural' is only seen to be that way from the perspective of those within the 'nature of the particular environment they are within' as in 'us' here in the physical universe contemplating the notion of a spiritual one. We think of the spiritual as being 'supernatural' because it is not of our own 'natural' universe.]

GOD created the physical universe as a means to deal with the problem of the reaction. The reaction was to do with the aspect of GOD-Consciousness in the various forms, some of which were differentiating their own consciousness with GOD-Consciousness and thus 'seeing' GOD as being 'different'. Depending on the individual reaction, some 'worshiped' GOD as something 'other than' themselves while others rejected that idea. The reactions were not black & white - as in 'either/or'. The reactions were varied.

From GODs perspective ALL reactions were aspects of Itself, reacting in various ways and understood for that - as quite natural enough. To judge any of it 'evil' is to judge Itself 'evil' - and this is equally true in reverse.

So therein that process, GOD became aware of the knowledge of good and evil and understood both to originate from within Itself but only seen (understood) in that way because GOD created forms of varying densities and placed aspects of Its consciousness INTO those forms, and the reactions then happened.
- and sent any who had rebelled against HIM at all to Prison Earth
Now if one was to view the physical universe from outside the physical universe before any consciousness was placed into the universe, would one be able to define the physical universe (as a stand alone object), as either 'good or evil'?

I don't think so. It is just a place - a thing, an object. As such it is not good or evil - any more than any other thing - including forms of varying densities are good or evil. They are objects.

In this, I am saying that forms do not make something good or evil - they (obviously) allow for reaction. The reaction comes from that which can react - Consciousness is the only source of such reaction. Consciousness is that which reacts. Forms are objects without any ability to react of their own volition.

If the idea of the physical universe being created, was in order to create a prison for wayward 'rebels' - the prison itself is not good or evil but could be regarded as being either, depending on the position of those observing it.
For those not having to become a prisoner of it, it could be regarded as 'good' - not only because they won't be experiencing it, but also because it is going to contain those who will be experiencing it - it a manner which can potentially help them to remember who they essentially are - which is really what they are rebelling against.

For those destined to be imprisoned there, the universe could be regarded as 'evil' because it is a more densified reality which will serious inhibit their movements and abilities.

However, within the physical universe, their perceptions are altered as it is seen to contain good aspects and evil aspects together, and this is also dependent upon the each individuals own perceptions in their more densified forms - which in itself, is affected by their particular subjective experiences.

The individual is cut off from the conscious knowledge of prior existence, just as they were also cut of from the conscious knowledge of prior existence when they were placed into the less dense forms of the 'angelic'.

In relation to all this, it is important to understand that GOD as a 'stand alone' being -
prior to the creation of ANY form - was know only to Itself, and not as a visible FORM. GOD is purely Consciousness.

(In that, (metaphorically) if GOD created a mirror and looked into it for a reflection, GOD would see no thing.)

This is to say that angelic beings did not see GOD as any FORM. GOD was not in form.
Rather, GOD was information. Rather, GOD was in the process of dwelling within formation.

It that, when GOD created form, the form was 'dead' until GOD placed aspects of Its own consciousness within those forms in order that the forms could 'live' but the forms are not really that which is living. The forms are instruments in which GOD-Consciousness can experience living through.

It does not matter that the form acts as a barrier to this - the full knowledge of GOD - or in that, that the consciousness within the forms wander far from this full knowledge - it only matters that the consciousness is SOURCED from GOD and cannot ever - no matter how 'far' away it wanders, be anything other than GOD at its core identity.

(What identities the individual assumes are all illusion if those identities are focused entirely upon the form.)
To end in hell, one must have sinned the unforgivable sin of ascribing YHWH's motives to evil or they would be saved!
(That is an interesting and contrary theology. We all know that Christendom has many differing beliefs regarding who goes to hell and who does not. )

In relation to my own understanding of the whole process, if hell is an eternal place created for the containment of individual consciousnesses who are convinced that GODs motives are evil, then those conscious aspects represent the aspect of GOD-Consciousness which believes that of Itself.

Which of course is representative of self doubt. Metaphorically self doubt can 'go to hell'.

In real terms the theology of eternal hell represents GODs doubt in Itself and as long as hell exists as a place for those aspects of GOD- Consciousness which retain that doubt, then there will always exist that representation of GODs self doubt.

I personally don't ascribe to the theology (an eternal place called hell where individual consciousnesses are forever imprisoned) because it clearly represents not only GODs self doubt, but also GODs inability to eradicate that aspect of self doubt and as long as hell is represented as somewhere that conscious beings exist forever, those conscious beings are literal aspects of GOD and thus GOD in those aspects has to be the very thing which gives the life (consciousness) to experience that situation. Literally, an aspect of GOD-consciousness which consigns itself to that fate forever. GOD, being GOD, cannot be unconscious to that aspect of itself.

It is aligned to the metaphor "dealing with ones own demons' and in that, we cannot deal with those demons by ignoring them (because they don't go away) or consigning them to some part of our consciousness where we can successfully ignore them enough to 'get on with our own lives'. We cannot sweep them under the carpet or pretend that they do not have anything to do with us.

The doctrine of an everlasting hell seeks to do this very thing and in doing so, creates a substandard version (idea) of GOD which acts in the same way as a reflection in a lake disturbed by ripples.

In other words, a distorted image of the truth.

(In relation to the mirror metaphor mentioned further back in this post.)

brianbbs67
Guru
Posts: 1871
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #17

Post by brianbbs67 »

I had a Orthodox Rabbi tell me the fall occurred at the beginning of the 7th day. Gen. 2:1 He said the words for the Heavenly host were diminished in the Hebrew, indicating made smaller.

I remember a story told from the Talmud, which i can not seem to find now.

It said, the heavenly host was gathered and the Sublime Seraphin saw God's throne and said to the assembly, I will make a throne up high like that and be "like unto God". To which, Micheal(who had a different name at that point), from a lower choir of angels, said, "who said they are like unto God?" And the melee began and Ha'Satan and his friends were cast out. God then changed the angels name to Mikael. " like unto God". I will look for the reference and post when found.

Post Reply