Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

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Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #1

Post by William »

Hi - this is a question for all who believe in doctrine relative to what I describe below.

Yesterday I got a pamphlet off a Jehovah's Witness...more about that here;

♦ The Supernatural and the BibleImage

... and long story short, the time before the physical universe is specific to non physical beings existing and when GOD decided to create the physical universe ALL the angels rejoiced.

But then something happened which made some of the angels stop rejoicing, and not only that, but openly rebel against Jehovah/YHWH/Adonai/The Lord etc...

Can anyone tell me why they stopped rejoicing - and/or point me to the relevant writ where I can read for myself?

It seems to be missing data which is very important to the whole story. Missing, the story remains incomplete.

Thanks.

W

eta

I googled "why did the angels stop rejoicing?" and drew a blank. Googling "why did the angels rebel against GOD?" seems to have more data...

So far nothing specific to answering the question. Its seems to revolve around Satan wanting to be like or replace GOD, but this does not align with why the angels stopped rejoicing either during or shortly after the creation of the physical universe.

At least, not as far as I can tell.

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: But then something happened which made some of the angels stop rejoicing, and not only that, but openly rebel against Jehovah/YHWH/Adonai/The Lord etc...

Can anyone tell me why they stopped rejoicing - and/or point me to the relevant writ where I can read for myself?
JOB 38:4, 7 (compare Job 1:6)
When I founded the earth ... all the sons of God began shouting in applause...

JOHN 8:44
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.

JAMES 1:13-15
God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin,

MAT 4:8, 9
The Devil [...] said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.�


1 PETER 3:19
... the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day

GENESIS 6:2
The sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful.








Image
source: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... rld-tract/


RELATED POSTS

Why did Jehovah not immediately destroy the Devil after his rebellion?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #3

Post by William »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

In relation to my question, I cannot see in the bible quotes you have provided where an explanation as to why the angels stopped rejoicing in observing the act of the creation of the physical universe. This is what I am specifically asking for. Does the bible contain that information?

Thanks.

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: why the angels stopped rejoicing in observing the act of the creation of the physical universe.
Why do you conclude the angels stopped rejoicing at the specific moment while they were observing creation (ie during the 6 creative days described in Genesis)?
William wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
an explanation as to why the angels stopped rejoicing ... [d]oes the bible contain that information?
No. It contains the information provided, we need to apply critical thinking skills in order to come to some basic conclusions as to why they did what they did.
William wrote:I cannot see in the bible quotes you have provided [...] an explanation
That is not surprising to me.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #5

Post by William »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
Why do you conclude the angels stopped rejoicing at the specific moment while they were observing creation (ie during the 6 creative days described in Genesis)?
Did you read the link in the OP to my other post?

Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.

Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched a measuring line across it?

Into what were its pedestals sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone,

When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
Job 38: 4 and 7 NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

In relation to this, and the information in the magazine given to me by a JW - (as explained in the post linked to the OP) - the subject is 'the supernatural' re 'angels and demons'.
No. It contains the information provided, we need to apply critical thinking skills in order to come to some basic conclusions as to why they did what they did.
Thanks for that.
i assumed as much, because such information would already be as well known as the story of fallen angels is.

So - I think it rather strange that we are provided with information as to what happened but not as to why it happened and are left to our own devices to work that out. Strange, because it is really no more or less than a vital piece of information which would be extremely helpful in our journey - as it were - back to the full knowledge of GOD.
I cannot see in the bible quotes you have provided where an explanation as to why the angels stopped rejoicing in observing the act of the creation of the physical universe.
That is not surprising to me.
Because there is no explanation. So I am left with using critical thinking to come up with the most likely explanation as to what went down, why Lucifer wanted to replace GOD, What was it about the physical universe that is linked to this, and convinced a large part of the supernatural angelic beings to go along with Lucifer and see him as their new idea of GOD.

I assume also that the bible does not explain how spiritual beings can mate with physical beings. Do you have any idea how this can happen? What do your critical thinking skills on the subject come up with as a probable explanation?

Thanks

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #6

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote:... and long story short, the time before the physical universe is specific to non physical beings existing and when GOD decided to create the physical universe ALL the angels rejoiced.

But then something happened which made some of the angels stop rejoicing, and not only that, but openly rebel against Jehovah/YHWH/Adonai/The Lord etc...
This interpretation presupposes that the rejoicing happened before the fall of Satan and his rebellion... here are certainly many big gaps in our knowledge and a few logical ways to interpret what we do know.

I contend that the creation of the physical universe came AFTER the Satanic rebellion. For this I turn to Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. which basically tells us that every person created in the image of GOD has seen THE PROOF OF HIS DEITY AND POWER so that when they are charged in court they will have no excuse and will be justly condemned.

The crux of this doctrine rests upon the meaning of "have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made," as pertaining to our looking at the universe as we see it as humans OR as pertaining to us seeing the actual creation of the physical universe before our very eyes, we having been created in the spirit world Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.

It is a problem for those who are committed to a certain angelology that this interpretation allows for the creation of only one 'race', ie, those created in HIS image and all differences between the kinds of people and spirits is due to spiritual attainment or degradation through sinfulness.

But I think the problems with accepting that we are angels in spirit and will return to that image in our resurrection is easier to accept than the idea that by looking at nature all people are convicted by their perfect knowledge of YHWH's power and deity. This proof of YHWH is so perfect, ALL have no excuse when they are banished to hell. Every person who ever lived has experienced this proof, but when we look for evidence of this understanding in human culture we see no evidence of it. Everyone in all of creation supposedly gets this knowledge from looking at nature but no one has ever spoken of it to anyone else - it is the best kept secret in the universe! In fact 95 % of humanity looks at reality and understands things quite different from YHWH's deity and power.

Now a short look at the nuances of our free will which is the mainstay of my interpretation of Christianity. IF GOD proved HIMself by the creation of the physical universe before our eyes BEFORE we chose to accept HIM as our GOD or to rebel against HIM, any and all rebellion would have been squashed at that moment for no one can stand against the Glory of GOD. Would you ever convince yourself that you could avoid hell in a rebellion against a GOD who had created the physical universe before you? My stance is that such proof would end all rebellion before it even started which effectively curtails our ability to choose rebellion, making our acceptance of HIM to be HIS idea, not our choice, thus negating the hope for any true love to develop between us nor any true marriage.

So to preserve our free will ability to reject HIM as well as to accept HIM without coercion, such proof had to be given AFTER all our choices about our relationship with HIM were finalized and over. Thus Satan's rebellion was in full swing against the unproven claims of this supposed GOD named YHWH when HE proved HIMself by creating the physical universe while we watched.

This proof solidified everyone's chosen position about HIS deity, pro or con, for ever. The only problem I have see with this interpretation is that it has the Satanic all praising YHWH's creation with the holy angels and HIS sinful elect, Job 38:7. I tend to think that the creation was so stupendous, so amazing, that even the Satanic who realized later they were doomed were driven to praise HIS glory!

As for why we have no memory of these happenings, the bulk of Romans 1 is about how sin controls the mind such that sinners repress the truth they know in favour of the sin they desire.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

William wrote: So - I think it rather strange that we are provided with information as to what happened but not as to why it happened and are left to our own devices to work that out. Strange, because it is really no more or less than a vital piece of information which would be extremely helpful in our journey - as it were - back to the full knowledge of GOD.
Ummm, no piece of info is vital to anything but only faith, trusting in Christ to have achieved your salvation from the enslaving effects of sin and the legal consequences of having chosen to sin.
Because there is no explanation. So I am left with using critical thinking to come up with the most likely explanation as to what went down, why Lucifer wanted to replace GOD,
He rejected YHWH's claims to be our GOD believing him to be a liar and ego-maniacle manipulator. Part of his faith in this unproven position was his belief that he was as good or even better than anyone else so YHWH could not be above him.
What was it about the physical universe that is linked to this, and convinced a large part of the supernatural angelic beings to go along with Lucifer and see him as their new idea of GOD.
Yes, I hope you can see my answer to this already. His fall came before the creation of the physical universe so had nothing to do with it.
I assume also that the bible does not explain how spiritual beings can mate with physical beings. Do you have any idea how this can happen? What do your critical thinking skills on the subject come up with as a probable explanation?
I believe that when a spirit being manifests a body for itself, rather than being born into humanity, they can manifest any of our physiology, not just faces and vocal chords. I am not convinced this actually happens.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

This interpretation presupposes that the rejoicing happened before the fall of Satan and his rebellion...
There is no reason yet given as to why one cannot presuppose this as being the case. More to the point, since the information is vital, IF Satan and the other angels were not present to witness the creation of the physical universe, there seems no reason why this would not have been mentioned, even for the sake of clarity.
here are certainly many big gaps in our knowledge and a few logical ways to interpret what we do know.


The knowledge itself (in this instance) comes from the stories in the bible themselves, so therein the 'big gaps' are in the stories.
I contend that the creation of the physical universe came AFTER the Satanic rebellion. For this I turn to Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. which basically tells us that every person created in the image of GOD has seen THE PROOF OF HIS DEITY AND POWER so that when they are charged in court they will have no excuse and will be justly condemned.
I do not immediately see the connection between this verse and the Satanic rebellion, as the verse clearly speaks about human beings within the physical universe, and in that - apparently - we humans are able to ascertain (see) the true nature of GOD.

(I have no comment to make regarding condemnation as this thread topic is focused upon the Supernatural and questions regarding Angels and Demons in relation to that.)
The crux of this doctrine rests upon the meaning of "have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made," as pertaining to our looking at the universe as we see it as humans OR as pertaining to us seeing the actual creation of the physical universe before our very eyes, ...
Are you suggesting that we were the angels who witnessed the creation of the physical universe and applauded/rejoiced over it?
...we having been created in the spirit world Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.
Do you have references from the bible to this theology? It suggests that we are supernatural beings ourselves (being spirit). Also, we have examples in the bible as to how GOD supposedly placed us within human form. Do you have references which explain how GOD created us in Sheol? As in - what method did GOD use to create conscious spirit beings. Also - were angels created in Sheol as well or some other place?
Every person who ever lived has experienced this proof, but when we look for evidence of this understanding in human culture we see no evidence of it. Everyone in all of creation supposedly gets this knowledge from looking at nature but no one has ever spoken of it to anyone else - it is the best kept secret in the universe! In fact 95 % of humanity looks at reality and understands things quite different from YHWH's deity and power.
I don't agree with you in the sense that it is clear to me that most cultures actually DO have ideas of GOD within them...some are even similar to the idea of the GOD of Israel.
Apart from that, you speak as if you understand precisely what this evidence is that 95% humanity are blind to.
Even so, I will not inquire as to what this evidence is that you see, not only because it doesn't appear to be immediately relevant to the thread topic, but also because your habit NOT to answer questions put to you when it suits you not to has taught me not to bother asking. Perhaps if and when it suits you, you can place such answers in your members notes - or if you already have done so, just link me to them and I will go read for myself.

The rest of your comments in your post are not directly relevant to the thread topic, as the topic is not about condemnation and hell, and I do not wish the topic to change course from its intended path to that degree. I want to stay focused upon the reason why some of the angels rebelled, chose to create trouble for humans, were permitted by YHWH to do so, and how it is possible for spiritual beings (sons of GOD as they are referred to) to mate with physical beings. Stuff like that...directly to do with subject post I linked to in the OP.

Thanks.

W

eta - [an aside] when I observe nature and the universe I do not 'see' the same idea of GOD as you do. Indeed, when I read about YHWH I do not 'see' the same being as you profess YHWH to be.
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Re: Supernatural - A question regarding Angels and Demons

Post #9

Post by William »

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]
He rejected YHWH's claims to be our GOD believing him to be a liar and ego-maniacle manipulator. Part of his faith in this unproven position was his belief that he was as good or even better than anyone else so YHWH could not be above him.
I have seen no biblical reference to Lucifer thinking of YHWH as you describe above. Can you link me to any?

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Post #10

Post by William »

In thinking about it, I think my questions have been sufficiently answered in that the bible has gaps in the story which require the individual to think for themselves and - f possible - to fill those gaps with the most logical answers they can think of which maintain the overall continuity of the story - rather than introducing notions which add to contradiction.

The bible is very scarce on data regarding the angelic rebellion which is unacceptable in relation to human beings who are directly affected in a negative manner because of the allowance being made that the angels could interfere with processes on earth, causing great trouble and harm, and even mate with human beings (which is contradicting the differences between spirit and flesh to unacceptable degree.)

Information on Lucifer I have found from another source tends to give answers to some questions - logical as well and obviously based in critical thinking.

In short, the data suggests that Lucifer is an inter-dimensional being who is portrayed along the lines of a scientist of superhuman genius who is also able to manipulate linear time...quite the being.

He regards human beings in much the way as humans regard animals, and sees them as a means to an end - slaves - and expendable for that. He is unable to stay long within our universe because of the particular nature and density and the risk that he will be trapped in his form within this universe.

According to this alternate data, the universe has not always been so densely physical and at one time was far more adapted to spirit beings from various dimensions who were able to come and go as they pleased.

In this data, Lucifer is not referred to as 'Lucifer' but as 'Anu' who is the most intelligent of his race - by far - and the king of a race of inter-dimensional beings called the Anunnaki and these beings are aligned with the fallen angels, and Anu is most definitely aligned with the idea of the Abrahamic GOD.

This of course can be argued away as 'satanic invention' created to sully the good reputation of the Abrahamic GOD, only - well that might be true if indeed the Abrahamic GOD has a good reputation.

The reputation of that GOD has been acceptably questionable/debatable for thousands of years in human societies - even globally now.

Another aspect of the data is that the True GOD is known as "First Source" and did not directly create our physical human instruments. Anu created these and we are another much younger spiritual species which Anu seduced into entering the human form in order to be able to control us by using our spirit to empower those forms as an indirect way of controlling our wills toward his agenda.

We went along with this because we were naive and too trusting and somewhat impressed by this older, seemingly wiser spiritual species who pretended to have our best interests central to their agenda.

Once we agreed and allowed ourselves to be implemented in the experiment, it became what it is and we are trapped and cut off from the true knowledge of the direct memory of our prior existence as spiritual beings. We literally became something else without even realizing it. Yet we essentially are STILL what we have always been, but that knowledge is actively kept from us through any and all means available.

Anu then assumed the role of GOD over us, and we accepted his position as true and rightful because we knew no different and anyway.
Regardless of not being fully informed, we still chose to wear the human form (even if we do not remember doing so) and are responsible for - not only our own captivity, but also our own escape from that captivity. We simply did not comprehend that any spiritual species could act with such deception against another. It was simply not part of our own experience as spiritual beings and such an idea had never even been contemplated as being even an idea, let alone as being possible to actually carry out.

I am only rendering a brief summary of the data I speak of here. It is very complex stuff, but in relation to biblical stories, it is the closest explanation I have ever read which fills in those biblical gaps through obvious critical thinking and logical processes.

It may be true or it may be more metaphor which has to be processed in order to reach and grasp another level of understanding our present position within our present reality.

The overall point being, that wherever we get our information, we need to not simply accept it on faith, but rather through critical thinking and logical processes which best fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

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