Questions for Roman Catholics ...

[McCulloch]

Many Roman Catholics disagree with specific teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. These are not areas where the church has been ambiguous or where there has been any indication that their dogma will ever change. These are issues such as the exclusively male priesthood and the reproductive issues of contraception and abortion.

If you are a Roman Catholic:
Do you agree with the Church on these issues? If so, what is your view on those Roman Catholics who disagree on these issues but remain practicing Roman Catholics? If not, why do you remain in the Roman Catholic church? Why not find a church more in line with your actual beliefs?

[WinePusher]

Many Roman Catholics disagree with specific teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. These are not areas where the church has been ambiguous or where there has been any indication that their dogma will ever change. These are issues such as the exclusively male priesthood and the reproductive issues of contraception and abortion.

If you are a Roman Catholic:
Do you agree with the Church on these issues? If so, what is your view on those Roman Catholics who disagree on these issues but remain practicing Roman Catholics? If not, why do you remain in the Roman Catholic church? Why not find a church more in line with your actual beliefs?

I am a Roman Catholic and disagree with the church, but not with the issues you raise. I've got no problem with exclusive male priesthood and their reproductive stances. My disagreements lie with the churches stance on immigration, social justice and enviromental issues.

[McCulloch]

I am a Roman Catholic and disagree with the church, but not with the issues you raise.

How do you regard those Roman Catholics who do disagree with the Church's stand on reproductive issues and the exclusively male priesthood?

[WinePusher]

How do you regard those Roman Catholics who do disagree with the Church's stand on reproductive issues and the exclusively male priesthood?

Some would regard them as the negative term "cafeteria catholics" who pick and choose what they want to beleive, I regard them as people following their conscience. However, I have a hard time with self avowed catholic christians, who profess to have a relationship with Jesus, but permitt things such as abortion. This isn't a church tradition, this is from scripture, and the bible is very clear on abortion.

[Goat]

How do you regard those Roman Catholics who do disagree with the Church's stand on reproductive issues and the exclusively male priesthood?

Some would regard them as the negative term "cafeteria catholics" who pick and choose what they want to beleive, I regard them as people following their conscience. However, I have a hard time with self avowed catholic christians, who profess to have a relationship with Jesus, but permitt things such as abortion. This isn't a church tradition, this is from scripture, and the bible is very clear on abortion.

Where is the bible clear on abortion?

Why, if the bible is clear on abortion, does it have a procedure in it that causes an intentional miscarriage?

[McCulloch]

Some would regard them as the negative term "cafeteria catholics" who pick and choose what they want to believe, I regard them as people following their conscience.

I would have more respect for their conscience if they did not associate themselves with an organization with which they have fundamental disagreements.

However, I have a hard time with self avowed catholic christians, who profess to have a relationship with Jesus, but permitt things such as abortion. This isn't a church tradition, this is from scripture, and the bible is very clear on abortion.

Firstly, isn't the teaching of the Roman Catholic church that the church is the source of the Bible. The highest spiritual authority on earth is the church, the continuing representation of the Body of Christ, not the Bible.

Secondly, the Bible is not very clear on abortion. But perhaps that is another topic.

[WinePusher]

Where is the bible clear on abortion?

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Psalm 127:3: "truly children are a GIFT from the LORD; the fruit of the womb is a reward".

And a few others I cannot remember. The verses show that the fetus has a "soul" and a "purpose." Thus killing it would be the same as killing a human life.

Why, if the bible is clear on abortion, does it have a procedure in it that causes an intentional miscarriage?

I don't know what this procedure is..

[Goat]

Where is the bible clear on abortion?

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, lets take a look at that in context, now, shall we.

Jeremiah is talking about the feeling that he in specific was chosen by God to be a prophet. That means that he felt God chose him 'in the womb'. At best, that is discussing a specific case, the birth of a prophet. At worse, it is just the feeling of a single man who feels singled out for great things. It does not address abortion at all.

Psalm 127:3: "truly children are a GIFT from the LORD; the fruit of the womb is a reward".

Now, that is a bad translation there. The Judah press has it as '

Behold, the heritage of the Lord is sons, the reward is the fruit of the innards.

Now, if we take it at face value and literal (which according to the rashi commentary, it isn't.. it just means that sons are a reward. it does not address the subject of abortion at all.

And a few others I cannot remember. The verses show that the fetus has a "soul" and a "purpose." Thus killing it would be the same as killing a human life.

So far, the two passages you showed strike out pretty badly. You have to really twist the words to mean a prohibition against abortion.

Why, if the bible is clear on abortion, does it have a procedure in it that causes an intentional miscarriage?

I don't know what this procedure is..

Numbers 5.. the high priest feeds a 'potion' to a pregnant woman as a test for her fidelity.. and if she was unfaithful, she miscarriages. A rather barbaric ritual that thankfully is obsolete.

[WinePusher]

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, lets take a look at that in context, now, shall we.

Jeremiah is talking about the feeling that he in specific was chosen by God to be a prophet. That means that he felt God chose him 'in the womb'. At best, that is discussing a specific case, the birth of a prophet. At worse, it is just the feeling of a single man who feels singled out for great things. It does not address abortion at all.

Let me first establish that these translations were taken from the King James Version, a text that is considered by many to mirror the orignal syntax. In context, Jeremiah is penning what he claims to be a direct revelation from God. So this is not Jeremiah's wording, according to the text, but rather God's words. Now, one could interpret this as a specific case of the birth of a prophet. But then if God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb, according to the text, why would he not then know all other people before they were born in the womb? This is not exclusively meeant for Jeremiah. And on that, it does address abortion as it tells us that our purpose and our life began even before conception in the womb, thus if this text were to be taken literally, it would be interpreted as a declaration that life begins at conception and that abortion is the murder of a life, not a clump of cells.

So far, the two passages you showed strike out pretty badly. You have to really twist the words to mean a prohibition against abortion.

My second one may have striked out, but the first one doesn't.

Numbers 5.. the high priest feeds a 'potion' to a pregnant woman as a test for her fidelity.. and if she was unfaithful, she miscarriages. A rather barbaric ritual that thankfully is obsolete.

More like a superstition practiced by ancients. If she drinks and she has been unfaithful she will miscarriage, if she drinks and she has been faithful, she will not miscarriage. The only determining factor is whether or not she was faithful, thus making it a superstition, not any biological or biochemical determinants.

[Goat]

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, lets take a look at that in context, now, shall we.

Jeremiah is talking about the feeling that he in specific was chosen by God to be a prophet. That means that he felt God chose him 'in the womb'. At best, that is discussing a specific case, the birth of a prophet. At worse, it is just the feeling of a single man who feels singled out for great things. It does not address abortion at all.

Let me first establish that these translations were taken from the King James Version, a text that is considered by many to mirror the orignal syntax. In context, Jeremiah is penning what he claims to be a direct revelation from God. So this is not Jeremiah's wording, according to the text, but rather God's words. Now, one could interpret this as a specific case of the birth of a prophet. But then if God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb, according to the text, why would he not then know all other people before they were born in the womb? This is not exclusively meeant for Jeremiah. And on that, it does address abortion as it tells us that our purpose and our life began even before conception in the womb, thus if this text were to be taken literally, it would be interpreted as a declaration that life begins at conception and that abortion is the murder of a life, not a clump of cells.

It still doesn't matter if you consider it Jeremiah's words, or words that Jeremiah said were from God. It doesn't address conception, it doesn't address life, or murder. It addresses the fact that Jeremiah was chosen by God while still in the womb. That is all it is addressing. (Or, at least that is what Jeremiah Claimed). You are blowing things out of proportion, and taking things out of context. It is not addressing abortion and when life begins at all.

So far, the two passages you showed strike out pretty badly. You have to really twist the words to mean a prohibition against abortion.

My second one may have striked out, but the first one doesn't.

Numbers 5.. the high priest feeds a 'potion' to a pregnant woman as a test for her fidelity.. and if she was unfaithful, she miscarriages. A rather barbaric ritual that thankfully is obsolete.

More like a superstition practiced by ancients. If she drinks and she has been unfaithful she will miscarriage, if she drinks and she has been faithful, she will not miscarriage. The only determining factor is whether or not she was faithful, thus making it a superstition, not any biological or biochemical determinants.

Yes, it is superstition, since I don't think her faithfulness would matter one way or another, but it is a method where it is assumed miscarriage can be induced.