Do you have a question for a Reformed Baptist Christian?

[AmazingJesusIs]

Ask me questions about my beliefs.

I believe in:

TULIP
T - Total Depravity (Man is Dead in His Sins and Has No Say in His Salvation)
U - Unconditional Election (God Saves Off of No Previous Merit or Work)
L - Limited Atonement (Jesus Died Only for Those the Father Chose)
I - Irresistible Grace (Man Cannot Resist God's Salvific Grace if it is Imposed on Him)
P - Perseverance of the Saints (Once Saved, Always Saved; According To 1 John 2:19.)

The Five Solas
Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
Sola fide ("by faith alone")
Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
Solo Christo ("through Christ alone")
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

[bernee51]

Ask me questions about my beliefs.

I believe in:

TULIP
T - Total Depravity (Man is Dead in His Sins and Has No Say in His Salvation)
U - Unconditional Election (God Saves Off of No Previous Merit or Work)
L - Limited Atonement (Jesus Died Only for Those the Father Chose)
I - Irresistible Grace (Man Cannot Resist God's Salvific Grace if it is Imposed on Him)
P - Perseverance of the Saints (Once Saved, Always Saved; According To 1 John 2:19.)

The Five Solas
Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
Sola fide ("by faith alone")
Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
Solo Christo ("through Christ alone")
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Are you saved?

How do you know?

[Darias]

It appears that you've incorporated aspects of Calvinism into your world-view.

I've personally always wondered How a God who possesses free-will (commonly known as choice), that is also omnipotent, that is also omniscient, that is also omnibenevolent -- can establish such a system whereby most are damned from the beginning, whilst some were prepared for salvation.

If God is perfectly just and good and all-loving, and had a choice in the matter, then why didn't God set up an alternative system? Why did he decide to fate millions to an unimaginable eternal suffering?

If most of us have no say in our eternal fates (no matter how much good we do, no matter what we believe, no matter of we call Jesus "Lord" or not), and God chose to make it that way (damning most of us) then his love, mercy, and justice must be arbitrary.

This of course means that such a God cannot be omnibenevolent.

Of course, it is impossible to blame the sinful state of man upon mankind alone. If God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would disobey Him, and knowing ahead of time all the suffering and bloodshed that would result from that -- And if God had an alternative choice -- than God is responsible for the existence of evil, and human suffering on this earth and in the next life.

This of course means that there is no hope for anyone, since no one has the possibility of knowing whether or not they were doomed from birth or not. They have no choice in their salvation, even if they wanted to believe, even if they loved God and worshiped Jesus and Trusted in Him -- in the end, God may reject them because they were objects of "his wrath."

If the doctrine of election is true, then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why did God become a man and die as an atonement for our sins, and punish Himself for an impossible standard he established?

He could have simply avoided all that by creating beings which would not be compelled by a flaw in their design to become objects of God's wrath. He could have ensured that all of mankind could live in an Eden and praise and worship Him forever.

Instead He chose, knowing ahead of time what would occur, to created flawed beings which would be easily deceived by Satan; and for eating a fruit, God doomed all flesh, so that all humans are cursed from birth by being born human. And so our only hope was God's game of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" with our souls before the universe began.

The winning numbers have been established, you could be the lucky winner -- but you won't find out until after your death.

If you failed to be chosen, then your life was vain, all the good things you did, all the love you gave to Jesus and to others, all the things you accomplished on this earth was for nothing -- and God laughs at all of it -- and then he says "depart from me, I never knew you"

And then He throws you into hell, a place prepared for the angels and for the un-elected souls... where they will be tormented forever, day and night, and their screams and begging, and horror, their crying, their feeling of betrayal, and agonizing bemoaned praises "Jesus is Lord" will please the Almighty forever and ever.

And all the saints in heaven, chosen before time, will also praise the Lord with joy, thanking Him for his selective love and mercy -- sparing some of his toys from the furnace -- none will deserve the eternal bliss he decided to give them -- and He knows it -- but they will praise him night and day with joy to his perfect delight.

His universe. His rules. His pleasure.

[center][/center]


Sorry if this depiction is offensive -- I'm only expressing my personal views on what I feel is a doctrine that takes away from God's goodness.

Now if I misrepresented anything, please let me know. I would like to know your position in more detail, and how you can reconcile such a belief with a all-loving, perfect God without cognitive dissonance.

[AmazingJesusIs]

It appears that you've incorporated aspects of Calvinism into your world-view.

I've personally always wondered How a God who possesses free-will (commonly known as choice), that is also omnipotent, that is also omniscient, that is also omnibenevolent -- can establish such a system whereby most are damned from the beginning, whilst some were prepared for salvation.

If God is perfectly just and good and all-loving, and had a choice in the matter, then why didn't God set up an alternative system? He didn't set up different "system" because He is God, and can do what He wants. Why did he decide to fate millions to an unimaginable eternal suffering? So His power and justice could be shown for His glory.

If most of us have no say in our eternal fates (no matter how much good we do, no matter what we believe, no matter of we call Jesus "Lord" or not), and God chose to make it that way (damning most of us) then his love, mercy, and justice must be arbitrary. Not arbitrary, God is not random, He has a purpose for everything. Proverbs 16:4 tells us 'the LORD has made all for it's own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.'

This of course means that such a God cannot be omnibenevolent. True, He is only omnibenevolent to His elect.

Of course, it is impossible to blame the sinful state of man upon mankind alone. If God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would disobey Him, and knowing ahead of time all the suffering and bloodshed that would result from that -- And if God had an alternative choice -- than God is responsible for the existence of evil, and human suffering on this earth and in the next life. If you believe in the Bible, this must be the case anyways, for God created everything. Everything means EVERYTHING, not just the good things (according to man). Everything is just fine to God, because He planned it this way.

This of course means that there is no hope for anyone, since no one has the possibility of knowing whether or not they were doomed from birth or not. Not from birth, but when they are saved the know. They have no choice in their salvation, even if they wanted to believe, even if they loved God and worshiped Jesus and Trusted in Him -- in the end, God may reject them because they were objects of "his wrath." If they loved Him and worshipped Him, then they were apart of the elect. If they 'wanted' to believe, then it's because they have been elected.

If the doctrine of election is true, then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why did God become a man and die as an atonement for our sins, and punish Himself for an impossible standard he established? He died a real sacrificial death for His people -- the ones the Father gives Him.

He could have simply avoided all that by creating beings which would not be compelled by a flaw in their design to become objects of God's wrath. He could have ensured that all of mankind could live in an Eden and praise and worship Him forever. You are talking to two people here; me and yourself. If your a Christian and believe in the Bible, then you must believe He created everything as well. You get into a dangerous position when you begin to question God.

Instead He chose, knowing ahead of time what would occur, to created flawed beings which would be easily deceived by Satan; and for eating a fruit (it's not the action of eating an apple, but that they disobeyed God), God doomed all flesh, so that all humans are cursed from birth by being born human. And so our only hope was God's game of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" with our souls before the universe began. That's one way to put it, but He doesn't use 'eeny, meeny, miny, moe' per-say. I don't know what He elects us off of, but it's not by works or prerequisites.

The winning numbers have been established, you could be the lucky winner -- but you won't find out until after your death. Depends if you're apart of the elect or the doomed, because if you're elect then you know upon your true salvation.

If you failed to be chosen, then your life was vain, all the good things you did, all the love you gave to Jesus and to others, all the things you accomplished on this earth was for nothing -- and God laughs at all of it -- and then he says "depart from me, I never knew you" If you 'gave love to Jesus' then you are saved, but the "good things you did" and "all the things you accomplished" don't matter anyways. You're not saved because of works, but by the grace of God.

And then He throws you into hell, a place prepared for the angels and for the un-elected souls... where they will be tormented forever, day and night, and their screams and begging, and horror, their crying, their feeling of betrayal, and agonizing bemoaned praises "Jesus is Lord" will please the Almighty forever and ever. For starters, screaming 'Jesus is Lord' does not save a person. Second, "feeling of betrayal" will not be there, they will know why they are there.

And all the saints in heaven, chosen before time, will also praise the Lord with joy, thanking Him for his selective love and mercy -- sparing some of his toys (Toys? Really?) from the furnace -- none will deserve the eternal bliss he decided to give them -- and He knows it (and the elect know it) -- but they will praise him night and day with joy to his perfect delight. Are you saying it's a bad thing to praise God to please Him? Blasphemous.

His universe. His rules. His pleasure. Exactly.

[center][/center]


Sorry if this depiction is offensive -- I'm only expressing my personal views on what I feel is a doctrine that takes away from God's goodness. Most feel this way; however, they don't even understand what they are trying to disprove. Calvinism gives God all the glory by saying He is the only one that can save, and that man is hopeless without Him, and that He deals out His justice on the ones that deserve.

Now if I misrepresented anything, please let me know. I would like to know your position in more detail, and how you can reconcile such a belief with a all-loving, perfect God without cognitive dissonance. Again, all-loving towards His elect and beloved.

I commentated in red.
Also, did you have an overall question for me?

[Darias]

I'm just trying to understand your position as a Calvinist.

I'm sorry about my initial characterization if it was a bit much, I just feel strongly about this issue. I am a Christian and I believe in God and love Him.

If God is perfectly just and good and all-loving, and had a choice in the matter, then why didn't God set up an alternative system?

He didn't set up different "system" because He is God, and can do what He wants.

Then you believe that God possesses free will? If that's the case then God can operate outside of His nature. Many do not believe that is possible.

Are you personally comfortable with God's decisions. Does it bother you at all that God created a place of destruction to torment people for eternity?

What if some of those were your family; what if some of them were professing Christians who loved Jesus -- would that trouble you, or would you praise God for his choice?

Why did he decide to fate millions to an unimaginable eternal suffering?

So His power and justice could be shown for His glory.

I have heard this before, but I never have fully understood this justification. Could you please explain further?

How does the eternal suffering of billions upon billions of human beings -- good, bad, professing Christian, or otherwise -- bring glory to God's name? How does such a fate (not a punishment, but a fate; punishment is contingent upon a choice and an action -- as per Election, eternal hellfire is a fate) speak of God's justice?

God's selection of people, for eternal bliss or eternal agony, is not based upon a justice, reward based system -- it is solely based upon arbitrary selection. Billions of tormented souls do not speak of God's justice. But their fate does say a lot about God's character.

The existence of hell and the fate of billions would surely speak of God's power, if He wanted to demonstrate it in that fashion; of course God could do anything that would display his power in a manner that would leave anyone awe-struck. So why this way? Is there a reason, or is it "just because."

This of course means that such a God cannot be omnibenevolent.

True, He is only omnibenevolent to His elect.

If God only loves the humans He decided not to torture forever, then God by definition is not omnibenevolent (all-loving). If this is the case, then God does not love everyone. If that is the case than God cannot be said to be a God of love -- because that would imply that God is omni-benevolent, and He cannot be if that is the case.

God may extend love towards the beings He chose not to torture, but from a our perspective, God's selection is random -- and either way God's love and hatred are arbitrary. God may love you, but he may send your son or daughter to hell -- for His pleasure.

Of course, it is impossible to blame the sinful state of man upon mankind alone. If God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would disobey Him, and knowing ahead of time all the suffering and bloodshed that would result from that -- And if God had an alternative choice -- than God is responsible for the existence of evil, and human suffering on this earth and in the next life.

If you believe in the Bible, this must be the case anyways, for God created everything. Everything means EVERYTHING, not just the good things (according to man). Everything is just fine to God, because He planned it this way.

If God is the author of evil, Satan, Hell, genocide, murder, sin, rape, etc. How is it that God can also be perfectly Holy and Good?

To believe both is an impressive example of cognitive dissonance, but in reality the two are incompatible.

Under this system of Election, and given the nature of the world, etc., God cannot be a perfectly Holy, righteous, loving, or benevolent God, since He is the author and designer of every demented thing, including the blood-curdling screams of hell.

At best, given your responses so far -- God is not omni-benevolent, at worst, God is malevolent.

This of course means that there is no hope for anyone, since no one has the possibility of knowing whether or not they were doomed from birth or not.

Not from birth, but when they are saved the [sic.] know.

How do Christians know if they are saved or not? Does not the Bible say that many who cried "Lord, Lord" who not only confessed Lord, but did works in His name would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Do Christians know they are saved by some self-induced feeling of re-assurance? Or do Christians know they are saved by their unquestioning acceptance of the doctrine of Election and of Calvinism? Do you know with absolute certainty what your fate is? Would you accept God's sentence upon you if when you die you realized God had allowed you to deceive yourself, if only to give you a temporary comfort before He plunges you into darkness, right after He proclaims "Depart from me, I never knew you" ? Would you go willingly and silently if you knew it gave Him pleasure that you were never part of the elect?

They have no choice in their salvation, even if they wanted to believe, even if they loved God and worshiped Jesus and Trusted in Him -- in the end, God may reject them because they were objects of "his wrath."

If they loved Him and worshipped [sic.] Him, then they were apart of the elect. If they 'wanted' to believe, then it's because they have been elected.

That sounds great in an idealistic system. However, there are many who genuinely have conversions, and who later in life fall away from the faith -- and there are also many Christians who have genuine conversions, and yet struggle with a certain sin, or have questions about different aspects of their belief.

Are they once-saved-always-saved, or will you say that they "never were saved to begin with."

That is circular logic, and it is only apparent after the fact.

A person may want to love and accept Christ, but their will cannot save them, it would only be God's arbitrary grace which would save them -- you are confusing human will with God's salvation. Will is not evidence of election, because everyone wants to go to heaven, many people believe in God, many will cry "Lord, Lord" and do good in his name, but that doesn't amount to anything if God did not intend for them to go to Heaven. Their silly human emotions, like love, won't get them any closer to heaven, than wishing for cash would make them rich.

If the doctrine of election is true, then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why did God become a man and die as an atonement for our sins, and punish Himself for an impossible standard he established?

He died a real sacrificial death for His people -- the ones the Father gives Him.

Yes but why? Why did God come to earth and die, suffer a punishment He created, for the sinful nature of mankind, a state he also created?

If God elected people before creation, then why did God have to suffer His own punishment order to save them? He is all powerful; He could have just doomed and saved whomever He wanted without sending Himself to die.

In light of the doctrine of Election, the cross and the atonement for our sins makes no sense, as most are going to hell, not because they have sinned, but because God fated them to endure that horrible destiny.

He could have simply avoided all that by creating beings which would not be compelled by a flaw in their design to become objects of God's wrath. He could have ensured that all of mankind could live in an Eden and praise and worship Him forever.

You are talking to two people here; me and yourself. If your a Christian and believe in the Bible, then you must believe He created everything as well. You get into a dangerous position when you begin to question God.

I'm not questioning God; I'm trying to understand your doctrine. I'm asking questions in order to get a sensible logic answer -- if a doctrine cannot stand up to questioning, what is the point of believing in it? Fear?

And so our only hope was God's game of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" with our souls before the universe began.

That's one way to put it, but He doesn't use 'eeny, meeny, miny, moe' per-say. I don't know what He elects us off of, but it's not by works or prerequisites.

If it is not by works, pre-requisites, belief, love, or choice, than it is totally arbitrary -- arbitrary love, arbitrary grace, arbitrary mercy. God may not have rolled the dice at random before Creation, but from our perspective, his arbitrary choice fated everyone to heaven or hell, regardless of who we were, what we did, what we believed, or how much we trusted and loved Him.

You may not like the terminology of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe," but under the doctrine of Election, that's exactly what took place. I see no need in doctoring it up to make it sound more palatable.

The winning numbers have been established, you could be the lucky winner -- but you won't find out until after your death.

Depends if you're apart of the elect or the doomed, because if you're elect then you know upon your true salvation.

Again how does one know? Is it based upon a subjective feeling? I've felt saved many times, and there have also been many times where I experienced doubt and fear of whether God really saved me or not -- and if you haven't guessed it yet, the doctrine of Calvinism was one of those reasons.

Have you ever doubted your salvation? Have you ever feared hell? Have you ever had the slightest fear that maybe you're wrong, maybe you never were saved? Are you going to lie to me now by saying "no" ?

Or is "knowing" based upon full trust in the doctrine of Election, as described in Calvinism?

If you failed to be chosen, then your life was vain, all the good things you did, all the love you gave to Jesus and to others, all the things you accomplished on this earth was for nothing -- and God laughs at all of it -- and then he says "depart from me, I never knew you"

If you 'gave love to Jesus' then you are saved, but the "good things you did" and "all the things you accomplished" don't matter anyways. You're not saved because of works, but by the grace of God.

Um, giving love to Jesus is an act, we are not saved by our acts, we are saved by God's selective predetermination before time, remember?

Plus, do you not think that the people who confessed Christ as Lord and did great things in His name somehow did not love Jesus? Do you think that they just faked it? Do you think that they hated Him? Of course not --- they loved Him, that's why they called Him their Lord, that's why they preached and did great things in His name.

And yet God cast them into hell, not because he forsook them, but because He never selected them in the first place, they just didn't know it until after they died.

And then He throws you into hell, a place prepared for the angels and for the un-elected souls... where they will be tormented forever, day and night, and their screams and begging, and horror, their crying, their feeling of betrayal, and agonizing bemoaned praises "Jesus is Lord" will please the Almighty forever and ever.

For starters, screaming 'Jesus is Lord' does not save a person. Second, "feeling of betrayal" will not be there, they will know why they are there.

No, of course it doesn't save a person, and neither does confessing Jesus as Lord, and neither does good works -- as per Calvinism, only God's arbitrary selection saves a person.

And if my answer to the previous question is true, you better believe that there will be many former lovers of Christ who served Him, loved Him, preached His gospel, and did good things in His name -- you better believe that their chest will burn with agonizing demoralizing feelings of betrayal... a longing for His love that will never come, along with never-ending torture to boot.

... but again that's not God's fault as He never loved them in the first place, they didn't have the lucky numbers; they weren't chosen.

But you were! Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back -- rest easy, you've got a mansion upstairs. Don't worry about hearing the tear-choked screams of the un-elected, it's sound-proof!

And all the saints in heaven, chosen before time, will also praise the Lord with joy, thanking Him for his selective love and mercy -- sparing some of his toys from the furnace

(Toys? Really?)

Yes toys. I think that is a perfect description. You can use pots if you like. I prefer toys in this discussion. In Calvinism, God is the toy maker; He decided which toys He wanted to love and which of His toys he wanted to hear scream and cry forever before creation ever started. He created all toys flawed, with imperfections, and He decided only to repair some of them -- He could have fixed all of them in a blink of an eye, but He only decided to fix a few -- He does't need too many in heaven to sing His praises; after all, He wouldn't all that singing to drowned-out the bloody screams of the toys he rejected.

... but they will praise him night and day with joy to his perfect delight.

Are you saying it's a bad thing to praise God to please Him? Blasphemous.

No. I love God very much, and I worship Him frequently -- but I don't think God gets his rocks off by throwing people into hell. I think God is just and loving and that He allows people to have a choice if they want to believe in Him or not.

You on the other hand must grapple with the idea of loving and worshiping a God who for no reason known to you, decided before you were born not to send you to a place of eternal agony for the fact that you were not born perfect, while simultaneously damning billions to that dark, horrifying, and emotionally agonizing, eternal fate -- some of your family members included. How does that make you feel? Can you still worship God and claim that He is all loving, and just? -- perhaps in His own eyes, but objectively is He really just?

No, and He's not omnibenevolent either -- yet this is the nature you have ascribed to God -- your theology has made God out to be a monster just so you can place your hope in some eternal-security doctrine.

His universe. His rules. His pleasure.

Exactly.

Yeah!

[center][/center]



====


My opinions and criticism aside, welcome to the forum

I hope my passionate style of debating has not made you think less of me. I'm really a nice guy and I like to debate and I'm sure we will agree on many different things, just not Calvinism.

Also *hugs*

I almost feel bad for posting this, but I don't have any ill will towards God, I just have a hard time comprehending how God can be the author of evil and still call Himself good. That is totally illogical for me, and I get pretty passionate about discussions like these.

[AmazingJesusIs]

I'm just trying to understand your position as a Calvinist.

I'm sorry about my initial characterization if it was a bit much, I just feel strongly about this issue. I am a Christian and I believe in God and love Him.

If God is perfectly just and good and all-loving, and had a choice in the matter, then why didn't God set up an alternative system?

He didn't set up different "system" because He is God, and can do what He wants.

Then you believe that God possesses free will? I don't see it possible any other way. If God is God, then who or what can restrict Him? If that's the case then God can operate outside of His nature. Many do not believe that is possible. How do we know the true nature of God? We are mere humans, incapable of understanding everything. But my explanation would be if God does it, then obviously it is the nature of God, sense God did what it is He did.

Are you personally comfortable with God's decisions. Does it bother you at all that God created a place of destruction to torment people for eternity? No. It shows His power and His choice to do what He wants.

What if some of those were your family; what if some of them were professing Christians who loved Jesus -- would that trouble you, or would you praise God for his choice? If my family deserves hell according to God, so be it, but while I am with the Lord in heaven, all my tears and worries will be wiped away. I would praise God because He is God, and that He died for me. God is worthy of all praise, even from those He is sending to hell, becuase He is GOD!

Why did he decide to fate millions to an unimaginable eternal suffering?

So His power and justice could be shown for His glory.

I have heard this before, but I never have fully understood this justification. Could you please explain further? By sending millions and millions of sinful, unregenerate, worthless, filthy rag humans to hell, who have broken His Law ten billion fold, that shows a sense of ultimate justice. If you break one of the laws, you break them all.

How does the eternal suffering of billions upon billions of human beings -- good (read Romans 3:10), bad (again, Romans 3:10 shows us everyone is bad, sense they are not good), professing Christian (just because you prefess doesn't mean your a Christian. Some people profess to be Jesus Christ himself, does that make it so?), or otherwise -- bring glory to God's name? How does such a fate (not a punishment, but a fate; punishment is contingent upon a choice and an action -- as per Election, eternal hellfire is a fate) speak of God's justice? Is is a fate and a punishment. You broke God's Law, it doesn't matter how you came to it, what can the clay say to the potter?

God's selection of people, for eternal bliss or eternal agony, is not based upon a justice, reward based system -- it is solely based upon arbitrary selection. Billions of tormented souls do not speak of God's justice (it does too. They broke God's Law, and didn't have the redeeming blood of Christ covering them, so they deserve hell). But their fate does say a lot about God's character.

The existence of hell and the fate of billions would surely speak of God's power, if He wanted to demonstrate it in that fashion; of course God could do anything that would display his power in a manner that would leave anyone awe-struck. So why this way? Is there a reason, or is it "just because." The answer includes "just because" but the full answer would be "It is this way because God is God and can do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants it, and we should not question anything He does. For common sense sake, HE IS GOD. He is ALL-POWERFUL and ALL-KNOWING.

This of course means that such a God cannot be omnibenevolent.

True, He is only omnibenevolent to His elect.

If God only loves the humans He decided not to torture forever, then God by definition is not omnibenevolent (all-loving). If this is the case, then God does not love everyone. If that is the case than God cannot be said to be a God of love -- because that would imply that God is omni-benevolent, and He cannot be if that is the case. True, God is not omnibenevolent in the terms of man, but God's love and God's hate is much different than human love and hate. God does hate people. He truly does. Just as it is written in Romans 9:8-24. Really, the whole chapter, but that contains most of the answer for your questions in this post.

God may extend love towards the beings He chose not to torture (correct), but from a our perspective, God's selection is random -- and either way God's love and hatred are arbitrary. God may love you, but he may send your son or daughter to hell -- for His pleasure. Yes. He may love you, and send your humanly loved ones to hell. Romans 9:20, "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?"

Of course, it is impossible to blame the sinful state of man upon mankind alone. If God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would disobey Him, and knowing ahead of time all the suffering and bloodshed that would result from that -- And if God had an alternative choice -- than God is responsible for the existence of evil, and human suffering on this earth and in the next life.

If you believe in the Bible, this must be the case anyways, for God created everything. Everything means EVERYTHING, not just the good things (according to man). Everything is just fine to God, because He planned it this way.

If God is the author of evil, Satan, Hell, genocide, murder, sin, rape, etc. How is it that God can also be perfectly Holy and Good? He created all of those things to demonstrate His power and justice upon them in hell.

To believe both is an impressive example of cognitive dissonance, but in reality the two are incompatible. Not if you apply the explanation above.

Under this system of Election, and given the nature of the world, etc., God cannot be a perfectly Holy, righteous, loving, or benevolent God, since He is the author and designer of every demented thing, including the blood-curdling screams of hell. Hell is the wrath of God. What do you think was in the cup they held up to Jesus for him to drink? Sour wine? You believe it was sour wine that made the Son of God shake and tremble? Well, that shows how much you trust Him. A God that trembles at humanly wine? Please. The real contents of the container was the wrath of God. Jesus drank the entire cup of the wrath of God so His elect would not have to do it for themselves.

At best, given your responses so far -- God is not omni-benevolent, at worst, God is malevolent. I think my responses now determine otherwise.

This of course means that there is no hope for anyone, since no one has the possibility of knowing whether or not they were doomed from birth or not.

Not from birth, but when they are saved the [sic.] know.

How do Christians know if they are saved or not? Does not the Bible say that many who cried "Lord, Lord" who not only confessed Lord, but did works in His name would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Christians know they are saved by examining themselves, and seeing if they are of the faith. Read 1 John, see if you don't align to the criteria. If you do not, you should repent, and trust in the Lord to change you, but do not willfully give in to sin.

Do Christians know they are saved by some self-induced feeling of re-assurance? (Being a Christian is not about "the experience(s)")Or do Christians know they are saved by their unquestioning acceptance of the doctrine of Election and of Calvinism? (That is ridiculous. There are many saved Arminians.) Do you know with absolute certainty what your fate is? (I cannot compare my knowledge to God's knowledge of my fate.) Would you accept God's sentence upon you if when you die you realized God had allowed you to deceive yourself, if only to give you a temporary comfort before He plunges you into darkness, right after He proclaims "Depart from me, I never knew you"? I would not have to accept anything for my body to be spewed out of Jesus mouth and into the lake of fire. What is going to happen is going to happen, as it has been planned ahead of time. Would you go willingly and silently if you knew it gave Him pleasure that you were never part of the elect? (I do not know what I would do, the time has not come.)

They have no choice in their salvation, even if they wanted to believe, even if they loved God and worshiped Jesus and Trusted in Him -- in the end, God may reject them because they were objects of "his wrath."

If they loved Him and worshipped [sic.] Him, then they were apart of the elect. If they 'wanted' to believe, then it's because they have been elected.

That sounds great in an idealistic system. However, there are many who genuinely have conversions, and who later in life fall away from the faith (Read 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.") -- and there are also many Christians who have genuine conversions, and yet struggle with a certain sin, or have questions about different aspects of their belief. (I do not believe that a salvation will result in a perfect person until after the Second Coming, and all Christians receive their perfect bodies in New Jerusalem.)

Are they once-saved-always-saved, or will you say that they "never were saved to begin with." (The latter.)

That is circular logic, and it is only apparent after the fact. You seem to not have the same definition of circular logic as I do. What do you mean by that?

A person may want to love and accept Christ, but their will cannot save them, it would only be God's arbitrary grace which would save them -- you are confusing human will with God's salvation (I am not mixing the two. I believe in irresistible grace. You don't have a say in salvation.). Will is not evidence of election (true), because everyone wants to go to heaven (under what context? Are they standing before the Lord on Judgment Day, or are they grabbing some groceries at Wal-Mart and just start thinking about it? An atheist doesn't believe in either hell or heaven, so he doesn't 'want' anything), many people believe in God, many will cry "Lord, Lord" and do good in his name, but that doesn't amount to anything if God did not intend for them to go to Heaven (you cannot merit salvation upon yourself, that would be a works salvation, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us different.). Their silly human emotions, like love, won't get them any closer to heaven, than wishing for cash would make them rich (exactly).

If the doctrine of election is true, then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why did God become a man and die as an atonement for our sins, and punish Himself for an impossible standard he established?

He died a real sacrificial death for His people -- the ones the Father gives Him.

Yes but why? Why did God come to earth and die, suffer a punishment He created, for the sinful nature of mankind, a state he also created? So He could demostrate His love for His people; the elect.

If God elected people before creation, then why did God have to suffer His own punishment order to save them? He is all powerful; He could have just doomed and saved whomever He wanted without sending Himself to die. Now your questioning God and not me. My beliefs did not make it so, it is Scripture that says Jesus died, and it actually happened. You are, in fact, now questioning God.

In light of the doctrine of Election, the cross and the atonement for our sins makes no sense, as most are going to hell, not because they have sinned, but because God fated them to endure that horrible destiny. No, it is because of the sin they committed. It doesn't matter how you sin, you still sin, you broke the Law, which renders you deserving of hell. Again, Romans 9 gives us an explanation. "...what can the clay say to the potter?"

He could have simply avoided all that by creating beings which would not be compelled by a flaw in their design to become objects of God's wrath. He could have ensured that all of mankind could live in an Eden and praise and worship Him forever.

You are talking to two people here; me and yourself. If your a Christian and believe in the Bible, then you must believe He created everything as well. You get into a dangerous position when you begin to question God.

I'm not questioning God; I'm trying to understand your doctrine. I'm asking questions in order to get a sensible logic answer -- if a doctrine cannot stand up to questioning, what is the point of believing in it? Fear? No, your questioning God by saying "why didn't he just create perfect beings". That's a question for God, and not me. My beliefs that I have put up for question do not cover this. I just accept the fact that I was dead in my sins before Jesus saved me.

And so our only hope was God's game of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" with our souls before the universe began.

That's one way to put it, but He doesn't use 'eeny, meeny, miny, moe' per-say. I don't know what He elects us off of, but it's not by works or prerequisites.

If it is not by works, pre-requisites, belief, love, or choice, than it is totally arbitrary -- arbitrary love, arbitrary grace, arbitrary mercy. God may not have rolled the dice at random before Creation, but from our perspective, his arbitrary choice fated everyone to heaven or hell, regardless of who we were, what we did, what we believed, or how much we trusted and loved Him. This is correct.

You may not like the terminology of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe," but under the doctrine of Election, that's exactly what took place. I see no need in doctoring it up to make it sound more palatable. Okay, from a human stand point, our puny minds cannot comprehend how God does anything. I know He didn't sing eeny, meeny, miny, moe, but I know what your saying. It is unconditional election, not necessarily random however. I see a difference.

The winning numbers have been established, you could be the lucky winner -- but you won't find out until after your death.

Depends if you're apart of the elect or the doomed, because if you're elect then you know upon your true salvation.

Again how does one know? Is it based upon a subjective feeling? I've felt saved many times, and there have also been many times where I experienced doubt and fear of whether God really saved me or not -- and if you haven't guessed it yet, the doctrine of Calvinism was one of those reasons. I have addressed this previously.

Have you ever doubted your salvation? Have you ever feared hell? Have you ever had the slightest fear that maybe you're wrong, maybe you never were saved? Are you going to lie to me now by saying "no" ? I have, but I was always reassured when I began reading Scripture or when after praying a repentance prayer, I felt fresh and clean. You ARE supposed to examine yourself against God and the Bible.

Or is "knowing" based upon full trust in the doctrine of Election, as described in Calvinism? That is not 'described' in Calvinism.

If you failed to be chosen, then your life was vain, all the good things you did, all the love you gave to Jesus and to others, all the things you accomplished on this earth was for nothing -- and God laughs at all of it -- and then he says "depart from me, I never knew you"

If you 'gave love to Jesus' then you are saved, but the "good things you did" and "all the things you accomplished" don't matter anyways. You're not saved because of works, but by the grace of God.

Um, giving love to Jesus is an act, we are not saved by our acts, we are saved by God's selective predetermination before time, remember? Yes, but faith without good works is dead.

If you have a cold (if your are saved), you will sneeze, (you will do good works).
But if you don't have a cold (if you're not saved), then you can still sneeze (do good works).

Plus, do you not think that the people who confessed Christ as Lord and did great things in His name somehow did not love Jesus? (I cannot see their heart, only God can.) Do you think that they just faked it? (Could be, might not be. I again don't know.) Do you think that they hated Him? (Again, maybe, maybe not. I don't know, I'm not God.) Of course not --- they loved Him, that's why they called Him their Lord, that's why they preached and did great things in His name. That's circular reasoning. "They love him because they call him their Lord." I'm sure the people in North Korea call Kim Jong-Il their Lord, but I'm very sure they don't love him. I know I wouldn't.

And yet God cast them into hell, not because he forsook them, but because He never selected them in the first place, they just didn't know it until after they died.
They went to hell because they sinned, not because they aren't the elect, and the people in heaven go to heaven because they are the elect. I see a difference.

And then He throws you into hell, a place prepared for the angels and for the un-elected souls... where they will be tormented forever, day and night, and their screams and begging, and horror, their crying, their feeling of betrayal, and agonizing bemoaned praises "Jesus is Lord" will please the Almighty forever and ever.

For starters, screaming 'Jesus is Lord' does not save a person. Second, "feeling of betrayal" will not be there, they will know why they are there.

No, of course it doesn't save a person, and neither does confessing Jesus as Lord, and neither does good works -- as per Calvinism, only God's arbitrary selection saves a person. Correct.

And if my answer to the previous question is true, you better believe that there will be many former lovers of Christ who served Him, loved Him, preached His gospel, and did good things in His name -- you better believe that their chest will burn with agonizing demoralizing feelings of betrayal... a longing for His love that will never come, along with never-ending torture to boot. Read 1 John 2:19. If they left the body of Christ (also known as the church), they were never of it.

... but again that's not God's fault as He never loved them in the first place, they didn't have the lucky numbers; they weren't chosen. It's their fault because they sinned, not because God didn't elect them.

But you were! Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back -- rest easy, you've got a mansion upstairs. Don't worry about hearing the tear-choked screams of the un-elected, it's sound-proof! That's a secular way of putting it...

And all the saints in heaven, chosen before time, will also praise the Lord with joy, thanking Him for his selective love and mercy -- sparing some of his toys from the furnace

(Toys? Really?)

Yes toys. I think that is a perfect description. You can use pots if you like. I prefer toys in this discussion. In Calvinism, God is the toy maker; He decided which toys He wanted to love and which of His toys he wanted to hear scream and cry forever before creation ever started. (Again, read Romans 9:21)He created all toys flawed, with imperfections, and He decided only to repair some of them -- He could have fixed all of them in a blink of an eye, but He only decided to fix a few -- He does't need too many in heaven to sing His praises; after all, He wouldn't all that singing to drowned-out the bloody screams of the toys he rejected. You're, again, questioning God's choice to send people to hell, and not my beliefs.

... but they will praise him night and day with joy to his perfect delight.

Are you saying it's a bad thing to praise God to please Him? Blasphemous.

No. I love God very much, and I worship Him frequently -- but I don't think God gets his rocks off by throwing people into hell. I think God is just and loving and that He allows people to have a choice if they want to believe in Him or not. (That's your belief.)

You on the other hand must grapple with the idea of loving and worshiping a God who for no reason known to you, decided before you were born not to send you to a place of eternal agony for the fact that you were not born perfect, while simultaneously damning billions to that dark, horrifying, and emotionally agonizing, eternal fate -- some of your family members included. How does that make you feel? Can you still worship God and claim that He is all loving, and just? -- perhaps in His own eyes, but objectively is He really just? Yes, He is just, because He damns the people that broke His Law. He doesn't damn them because they are not elect, but because they are sinners. He saves people because they are elect, not because they kept the Law. If they could keep the Law, Jesus' death was pointless.

No, and He's not omnibenevolent either (in the terms of a secular human, no, He's not omnibenevolent) -- yet this is the nature you have ascribed to God -- your theology has made God out to be a monster just so you can place your hope in some eternal-security doctrine. This is the response I most often get, and it's quite amusing to me.

His universe. His rules. His pleasure.

Exactly.

Yeah!

[center][/center]



====


My opinions and criticism aside, welcome to the forum

I hope my passionate style of debating has not made you think less of me. I'm really a nice guy and I like to debate and I'm sure we will agree on many different things, just not Calvinism.

Also *hugs*

I almost feel bad for posting this, but I don't have any ill will towards God, I just have a hard time comprehending how God can be the author of evil and still call Himself good. That is totally illogical for me, and I get pretty passionate about discussions like these.

Do not sweat it. I love these intense... *cough*... discussions. I don't get enough of them in real life, because the people around me don't study enough about their own beliefs, or they believe what I believe, and there is nothing to debate. I do not feel bad, but I used an exclamation point and slammed on the key and felt like I was doing something wrong, haha. Most people don't see this belief as possible; however, when you start reading Romans 9, what can you say against it? And John 3:16, one of the teachers at my church has a great, reasonable explanation for how it doesn't mean every single person.

Here are some questions:

1. Do you believe Jesus died for everyone? (Yes/No)
2. Do you believe that there is a hell, and people will be there? (Yes/No)

The answers I think you will chose are 1. Yes, and 2. Yes.
Why?
For the first question, I think you'll answer yes because that's just the common belief of people opposed to my own.
For the second question, I think you will answer yes because Scripture, in many books of the Bible, speak of a place of torment and fire and brimstone, so unless you don't believe in the Bible (and I believe you either believe in the entire Bible, or none of it), you have to agree that hell is real, and people will go there.

If you really do answer yes to both question above, move on to the third and final question.

Since Jesus died for everyone, but people are still going to go to hell, does that not mean Jesus' atonement somehow failed?

* all of the links go to biblegateway.com to the appropriate verses
** I use the New American Standard Bible for study

[Darias]

[font=Impact]1.[/font]

Then you believe that God possesses free will?

I don't see it possible any other way. If God is God, then who or what can restrict Him?

I disagree. I don't see how God could possess free will; since I believe that God can only act in accordance with His own nature.

Of course it is important to define free-will. By free will, I mean the ability to do anything regardless of one's nature, social upbringing, DNA, etc.

I don't think God has free will; and I don't think people have free will.

We may be able to choose what we want to do, and God could certainly do that too -- but this is only done in accordance with our own respective natures.

Or do you feel that the fact that God cannot lie, or sin somehow takes away from God's omnipotence? I know, let's attribute a human abstraction (the concept of free-will) to God so that His omnipotence won't be threatened by silly things such as His never-changing nature.

I know Calvinists are big fans of God's omnipotence, and so that's why I'm asking.



[font=Impact]2.[/font]

If that's the case [if God has free will] then God can operate outside of His nature. Many do not believe that is possible.

How do we know the true nature of God? We are mere humans, incapable of understanding everything. But my explanation would be if God does it, then obviously it is the nature of God, sense God did what it is He did.

That's right; no one can know, including you. This is why everyone speculates; obviously we all want to make some basic sense of God, though no one can know Him fully. All that is left is to debate which attributes of God make sense, and which are nonsensical, demeaning to God's name, or downright illogical.

I personally believe that God is omnibenevolent, and by that attribute alone, which is Biblically supported, this renders God incapable of free will. That of course is a good thing because it is impossible for God to be just, good, or holy if God's actions and behaviors are random, arbitrary, or contradictory.

As for other aspects of God's nature, I am not sure -- and I am not even certain of God's omnibenevolence -- this of course is my personal opinion/belief.

In a way, I guess you could call me an Ignostic, as I do not objectively know any of God's attributes -- let alone can prove God exists (hence my Agnostic Theism).



[font=Impact]3.[/font]

I have heard this before {"God decided to fate billions to an unimaginable eternal suffering so His power and justice could be shown for His glory"} , but I never have fully understood this justification. Could you please explain further?

By sending millions and millions of sinful, unregenerate, worthless, filthy rag humans to hell, who have broken His Law ten billion fold, that shows a sense of ultimate justice. If you break one of the laws, you break them all.

Hold on there a minute before you lose me

All humans are born into sin right?

And it is for this reason they cannot enter heaven to dwell with a Holy God after death -- it is not because their bad deeds outweighed their good deeds, because they, by their very nature, are stained sinners.

If we are dirty, sinful, worthless, menstrual-rag humans, it is only because God created us that way.

Adam and Eve had a choice (though you could hardly call it that, as God created them, willing that they sin and disobey Him -- if He did not will it, they would not have done it).

But we have absolutely no choice. We are crap pots, broken toys -- designed by God ahead of time and prepared for destruction -- except of course those of us who were prepared ahead of time for bliss.

If we are sinners by nature, and we fail to live up to God's perfect holy standard by that reason alone, then How is it just that God punish us for that -- even if we want to be saved/love and obey Him?

It's analogous to a master catching taking his dog he raised from birth, then and torturing it to death because it failed to live up to his standards -- it had the tendency to bark -- what a filthy animal; it deserves electrocution, it deserves to wail in pain.

Isn't the master just for what he did? Let's give him a round of applause for not torturing our pets.




[font=Impact]4.[/font]

How does such a fate (not a punishment, but a fate; punishment is contingent upon a choice and an action -- as per Election, eternal hellfire is a fate) speak of God's justice?

Is is a fate and a punishment. You broke God's Law, it doesn't matter how you came to it, what can the clay say to the potter?

No, it is an eternal punishment for being the unfortunate victim of God's planned fate for you.

It does matter 'how you come to it.' It matters a lot. God is essentially damning broken vessels He created to an eternal fire He created for them. There is no justice in that -- there is no sin on our parts apart from that which God wanted us to have. If we aren't perfect pots prepared for His palace, that is no fault of our own -- we are simply being punished as mere objects (toys) meant to endure God's eternal wrath and hatred on no fault of our own, but upon God's whim before time.

That's what the pot has to say to the potter, and the pot is right. It is impossible for God to be just or omnibenevolent under this system. Calvinism makes God's nature, mercy, actions, love, hate -- arbitrary. And an arbitrary judge by default cannot be a righteous or just judge.

If the Bible says that God is righteous and just, and you hold those attributes to be unquestionable, then guess what that forces you to do? Either you must change the definition of justice, or you must question your own doctrines -- that is of course unless you want to question God's love, justice, etc. -- Good luck with that.



[font=Impact]5.[/font]

God's selection of people, for eternal bliss or eternal agony, is not based upon a justice, reward based system -- it is solely based upon arbitrary selection. Billions of tormented souls do not speak of God's justice. . .

(it does too. They broke God's Law, and didn't have the redeeming blood of Christ covering them, so they deserve hell).

Right, they broke God's perfect standards because they were born with imperfection, and those who perish in an everlasting, merciless torment only suffer such a fate because they failed to be selected for bliss before Creation began. Oh wait, I guess they didn't have a say in their fates, so basically God is sentencing them to hell because He created them to go there and be subject to his hate forever.

Yes, perfectly just.



[font=Impact]6.[/font]

The existence of hell and the fate of billions would surely speak of God's power, if He wanted to demonstrate it in that fashion; of course God could do anything that would display his power in a manner that would leave anyone awe-struck. So why this way? Is there a reason, or is it "just because."

The answer includes "just because" but the full answer would be "It is this way because God is God and can do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants it, and we should not question anything He does. For common sense sake, HE IS GOD. He is ALL-POWERFUL and ALL-KNOWING.

Just because God may be omnipotent, it doesn't mean that God can be a monster if He wants to be. Omnipotence doesn't necessarily connote arbitrary will and actions which conflict with God's eternal attributes.

I am not questioning God; I am questioning your perspective of God. Surely you can handle that -- and if you are right about God, I'm sure He doesn't feel threatened by the innocent and sincere questions of his child, does He?




[font=Impact]7.[/font]

How do Christians know if they are saved or not? Does not the Bible say that many who cried "Lord, Lord" who not only confessed Lord, but did works in His name would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Christians know they are saved by examining themselves, and seeing if they are of the faith. Read 1 John, see if you don't align to the criteria. If you do not, you should repent, and trust in the Lord to change you, but do not willfully give in to sin.

What if I examine myself and find out that I have cracks in my pot? Am I just screwed then? What should I do then, just be sorry for the way I was made and beg for God to caulk me with his grace? What if I place the entire trust of my heart and soul on the hopes that God will caulk me, only to later die and realize that God never did?

What does that say about trusting in God? Trust is a human emotion, sorrow and regret is a human emotion, begging is caused by desperation, another human emotion. Calvin's God is not human and could care less about what I go through, or about the hope, trust, or love I put into Him. Those things won't spare me from his eternal hatred which He decided to give to me before the time of creation.

To trust and hope is vain. Nothing can change God's mind -- and if you were cursed from birth, then it sucks to be you (speaking in generalities here; not referencing anyone in particular).



[font=Impact]8.[/font]

Do Christians know they are saved by some self-induced feeling of re-assurance?

Being a Christian is not about "the experience(s)"

Right, so how do you justify this?

Have you ever doubted your salvation? Have you ever feared hell? Have you ever had the slightest fear that maybe you're wrong, maybe you never were saved? Are you going to lie to me now by saying "no" ?

I have, but I was always reassured when I began reading Scripture or when after praying a repentance prayer, I felt fresh and clean.

I'm glad your feelings gives you reassurance in your doctrine. Not everyone experiences such emotions very frequently; consider yourself lucky.



[font=Impact]9.[/font]

Or do Christians know they are saved by their unquestioning acceptance of the doctrine of Election and of Calvinism?

(That is ridiculous. There are many saved Arminians.)

Oh good! I was beginning to think God was unfair.



[font=Impact]10.[/font]

And now, now you've lost me. This is a Non sequitur.

And yet God cast them into hell, not because he forsook them, but because He never selected them in the first place, they just didn't know it until after they died.

They went to hell because they sinned, not because they aren't the elect, and the people in heaven go to heaven because they are the elect. I see a difference.

... but again that's not God's fault as He never loved them in the first place, they didn't have the lucky numbers; they weren't chosen.

It's their fault because they sinned, not because God didn't elect them.

If God didn't elect you for eternal bliss, then by default He damned you to hell. You cannot blame the pots for throwing themselves into the furnace for being imperfect when you created those pots!

If you are a sinner by nature, and all are -- thus all being doomed, unless God decided ahead of time to extend grace to a few -- then it cannot be man's fault that he ends up in hell. After all, the potter MADE US LIKE THIS. If we go to hell it's because HE selected us to GO THERE when HE DID NOT include us in HIS ELECT.

It's very simple logic, and to claim otherwise is double-think.

I understand why people do it -- it's to apologize for God within that theological system as to make Him appear justified for His actions.

The fact is, if Election is true, then people are destined to hell because they failed to be selected for Election. Whether or not they commit sin is irrelevant, as everyone since Adam and Eve are believed to be stained by nature/by lineage.

God is essentially sending most dogs to hell because they have a tendency to bark, while extending his grace to a few -- loving them and hating all others -- because they barked? No, of course not, because all of them bark. Their barking does not send them to hell -- their failure to be selected for love ahead of time fates them to suffer an eternal hatred and torture.



[font=Impact]11.[/font]

Here are some questions:

1. Do you believe Jesus died for everyone? (Yes/No)
2. Do you believe that there is a hell, and people will be there? (Yes/No)

The answers I think you will chose are 1. Yes, and 2. Yes.
Why?
For the first question, I think you'll answer yes because that's just the common belief of people opposed to my own.
For the second question, I think you will answer yes because Scripture, in many books of the Bible, speak of a place of torment and fire and brimstone, so unless you don't believe in the Bible (and I believe you either believe in the entire Bible, or none of it), you have to agree that hell is real, and people will go there.

If you really do answer yes to both question above, move on to the third and final question.

Since Jesus died for everyone, but people are still going to go to hell, does that not mean Jesus' atonement somehow failed?

I grew up in a Baptist household and we would agree to point 1, and point 2. For question three, we usually believed that Jesus covered the price of all man's sins, and that all we have to do is choose to believe and accept that gift in order to be saved -- we did not feel that this took away from God's omnipotence, as He would be allowing it under that system.

The Calvinists I've argued with before absolutely abhorred the idea that people could actually hear and accept -- this, they believed, violated God's omnipotence. To suggest the Arminianist position, or something between Arminianism and Calvinism would literally make them angry.

Those are in fact the only positions where one can blame one's damnation upon the person rather than upon God -- God loved, bled and died, and if you reject, then you burn -- that's how the theology goes anyway.

...

Now I must say I've had a few changes in perspective since I was a child.

All I can say for 1 and 2 now is, "I don't know." I hope that point 1 is true if Christ is Lord and the atonement for our sins -- but as for point 2. I have my doubts, for many reasons that I don't have time to discuss at the moment.

I certainly do not buy the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy -- but that doesn't mean I am unable to argue different perspectives under such an assumption.

Several of my brothers in Christ refuse to debate with me for my position on the doctrine of inerrancy -- I hope that you will not follow suit as I've enjoyed our debates thus far.

[AmazingJesusIs]

Several of my brothers in Christ refuse to debate with me for my position on the doctrine of inerrancy -- I hope that you will not follow suit as I've enjoyed our debates thus far.

I have enjoyed it to, but there is no reason to debate the Bible with someone who doesn't believe int he Bible... it's pointless. Like trying to make a blind man appreciate a painting. Glad I figured out your disbelief in the Bible now so I didn't waste my time and keyboard life span anymore.

One last thing:
"The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil."
-Proverbs 16:4

[Darias]

Several of my brothers in Christ refuse to debate with me for my position on the doctrine of inerrancy -- I hope that you will not follow suit as I've enjoyed our debates thus far.

I have enjoyed it to, but there is no reason to debate the Bible with someone who doesn't believe int he Bible... it's pointless. Like trying to make a blind man appreciate a painting. Glad I figured out your disbelief in the Bible now so I didn't waste my time and keyboard life span anymore.

One last thing:
"The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil."
-Proverbs 16:4

I never said I didn't believe in the Bible, I just dont accept Biblical inerrancy; there are many Christians who don't. It's not like our debates would be "pointless" because I'm not saying "Do what you want," I'm interested how the doctrine of Calvinism can support itself logically and Biblically -- but I guess I'll never know.

[cnorman18]

My main objection to this point of view is that it gives no one the least reason to do or believe anything at all. What's the point of "evangelism" if no one can do anything at all about being saved or not saved? Other than the thrill of self-righteous pride and superiority when one "knows" one is among the Elect, what's the big motivator to believe this amoral silliness? It absolutely teaches that human existence is completely pointless. What's the point of even trying to be moral or good?

Actually, I have an answer for that last one; one tries to be good and moral for its own sake, because it's GOOD to be moral and good, whether one receives a Heavenly reward or not. Of course, that means nothing to those who believe in the bizarre, psychotic and absolutely amoral God that's being proposed here.

I have said elsewhere that belief in the good and the holy is worth holding, even if there is no God, and that therefore we humans may be better and higher than a nonexistent God.

They definitely make us better than THIS God. I have no reason to think I'm among the "Elect," but think I'll choose to try my best to be good anyway, thanks.