Christians: Why Do You Believe?

[Danny McGee]

Hello, I'm Danny.

This is my first post here, and I'd like to get to know the community a bit before I jump into the debate forums.

I'm an atheist/agnostic (more on that later if you'd like to know the details), and I love debating with those of religious persuasions (particularly Christians). To offer some backstory, I was a very devout Christian for a long time. It's difficult to pin exactly how many years because I was born and raised in the Church; it seems silly to say that I was born a Christian, but I did profess Christ as my savior and deeply believe that I had a personal relationship with God as far back as I can remember before I lost my faith.

To make a very long story short, when I was about 16 I stumbled onto a popular Christian message board which had a very active forum for theological debate. Through debating there, I slowly morphed my way from a Pentecostal (from the Church of God denomination) into a reformed Calvinist that rather fancied the PCA but didn't really believe in the usefulness of denominations beyond being a label by which to easily define and categorize one's particular set of beliefs.

There were a handful of atheists on that site, and eventually I started debating with them as well. Finally, shortly after my 18th birthday, I could no longer satisfy the new doubts that had formed as a result of these discussions, and I announced my apostasy. I've identified as an atheist now for the better part of the last seven years. If you'd like to know more about my history, I penned a much longer article on the subject about five years ago on Newsvine. I won't post a direct link because I don't want to be confused for a spammer, but suffice to say that it's easy enough to find if you'd like to look for it.

I find myself lately missing the time I spent debating and discussing these sorts of topics in a fair and reasoned environment. It's my opinion that frank debate with your intellectual and philosophical rivals is necessary for the maintenance of a healthy and informed worldview. So, I did a quick Google search, stumbled across this site, and figured I'd join the discussion.

I'm strongly opinionated and can tend to come off as abrasive sometimes in discussions like these, so my intention with this thread is to get to know some of you before I start debating in earnest, so that I'm not just interacting with a bunch of anonymous names on a website.

So, what's your story? How did you come to believe what you believe, and what is it exactly that you believe? This is mainly directed at Christians, because Christianity is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to chime in otherwise if you'd like.

[Goat]

This is just some of why I believe. For me it just makes the the most logical sense.
The bible says that the reason for the evil in the world is sin. Breaking God's commandments. My littly logical brain can understand that. There is a law, you break it, there are consequences. I can grasp that. If we are all inherently bad then we are all guilty. I understand that. Then I had to ask what would happen to humanity if everyone is guilty. God's answer was Jesus. Someone else pay the sin debt, someone else take that punishment. I could understand that.

That is why I believe.

I won't go debate the reasons... this is the wrong thread for that.. but one observation I will make is as soon as you up talk about 'sin'.. then you are already assuming God. Therefore, your reason is ad hoc assumptions, and a bit circular in nature.

[McCulloch]

Indeed you are right, a solid answer does not mean a correct answer, but I was going to keep searching until I found the the correct answer! Again that's my very logical brain. If there is a problem, then there is a solution. With me it started with a question, "Is there a problem with evil/wickedness (call it whatever you fancy) in this world?"

How do you know that your answer is correct? How do you know that there is a solution to every problem? To me, the problem of evil is more of a reason to disbelieve than to believe.

There are some clear tangents on just identifying the problem. Most religions start out with stating that man is inherently good.

You know, the only ones I have ever heard this claim from are the Christians. No Muslim has ever told me that they start out with the assumption that humans are inherently good. I have yet to hear a Jewish or Hindu apologist claim that their starting point is the inherent goodness of humans. Heck, even the Humanists do not presume the inherent goodness of humans. The basis of your argument seems not to have come from a genuine and personal survey of various religions, but from the Evangelical Christians' own view of other religions and philosophies.

Christianity starts out with man being inherently wicked. Follow both paths down the rabbit hole, and see where they lead you.

There is a Christian theological tradition which starts from the assumption that humans are inherently wicked. It is called Calvinism. Since humans are completely and inherently evil, there is nothing we can do, in and of ourselves, to merit a good God's favor. Therefore, if we have any favor with the God, it must be completely His doing and none of our own. If God had selected me for salvation, then my inherited wickedness will resist this. However, if God is sovereign, then His will will overcome my own and I will be saved. If God had not selected me for salvation, then there is nothing I can do or could even want to do to reverse this. Therefore, God has limited the atoning sacrifice to be effective only to save those he has chosen. This is the rabbit hole that the doctrine of the inherent wickedness of humans leads us.

After searching, I had a hard time being convinced that man was inherently good.

Here is your false dilemma. Are humans inherently good or inherently evil? How about a little of both?

If we are that 'good' why aren't things getting better on this planet? If we have this inherent goodness in us the over the course of time, things should be looking a lot better here on Earth. Did people just go into movie theaters and shoot random people for no reason 40 years ago? Did kids go into classrooms and just decide to fire on them with guns for no reason 40 years ago, at the rate that it's happening today? Did you hear about people hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings 40 years ago? I don't know your age, but I don't recall any of that growing up. My parents and grandparents didn't reall any of that growing up.

The chances that you will be deliberately killed by another human is less now than at any other point in human history. Humans are dying less often from violent crime; less often from war and less often by being killed by their own state than ever before. Public executions used to be entertainment. Religious heresy used to be a capital crime and the justification for war.

You can't even get humans to agree on what 'good' is.

We have more of a consensus of what good is than ever before. Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Those people who flew planes into buildings thought they were doing 'good'. So it was clear to me that goodness/correct behavior/acting right could not be defined by humanity. It had to come from a source outside humanity.

I agree. But that source cannot be a made up God. You cannot get away with, "X is good because our prophet says that the God revealed it to him." We can agree on what is good, but not if we look to divine revelation.

I had to ask what would happen to humanity if everyone is guilty. God's answer was Jesus. Someone else pay the sin debt, someone else take that punishment. I could understand that.

I don't understand this one. God wants to forgive us, but he promised that he would torture us forever, if we were not perfect. So to keep his promise, he sent his own son to become a human, to die, thus as one human for one really bad weekend, taking on the punishment of eternity for thousands, millions or billions of humans. How does this make sense?

[Nickman]

Atheist/Humanist. I think religion is a handicap and undermines critical thinking. People take a holy book (insert holy book) and close their mind to that book and only that book. Everything else if it is not in line with that book is taboo. The holy books determine what they believe. Sad really

[gospelsaves]

How do you know that your answer is correct? How do you know that there is a solution to every problem? To me, the problem of evil is more of a reason to disbelieve than to believe.

To ME (I’m speaking for myself) nobody else has put forth a viable better solution than God. And I just happen to be a person that believes that there is a solution to every problem. Else why bother at all with all the peace talks and peace treaties? If there really is no solution to injustice/evil/wickedness (whatever you want to call it) why bother?

You know, the only ones I have ever heard this claim from are the Christians. No Muslim has ever told me that they start out with the assumption that humans are inherently good. I have yet to hear a Jewish or Hindu apologist claim that their starting point is the inherent goodness of humans. Heck, even the Humanists do not presume the inherent goodness of humans. The basis of your argument seems not to have come from a genuine and personal survey of various religions, but from the Evangelical Christians' own view of other religions and philosophies.

Of course they do because all of them believe in a “works� salvation, meaning that man has his own ability to save himself. If you DO more GOOD than bad, you go to heaven. That’s a “works� salvation. Your own destiny is in your hands. If you live a good life and do good things then you get to go to heaven (or paradise, or reincarnated to something better….whatever you want to call it it’s something GOOD), if you did more bad things then you go to hell (or judgment, or reincarnated to something lower….whatever you want to call it it’s something BAD).

It’s like a scale. At the end when God (or whoever they call their deity) judges mankind whatever tips the scale is their fate. They did good, they get something good, they did bad they get something bad.

That’s most religions. Where do you think most people believe they start out at? Most religions including Islam, Hinduism…most all of them start with the scale being in favor of good….an INOCCENT child being born. And as that child grows they may start to do “bad� things that tip the scale the other way. But all see children as being innocent. An innocent baby.

There is a Christian theological tradition which starts from the assumption that humans are inherently wicked. It is called Calvinism. Since humans are completely and inherently evil, there is nothing we can do, in and of ourselves, to merit a good God's favor. Therefore, if we have any favor with the God, it must be completely His doing and none of our own. If God had selected me for salvation, then my inherited wickedness will resist this. However, if God is sovereign, then His will will overcome my own and I will be saved. If God had not selected me for salvation, then there is nothing I can do or could even want to do to reverse this. Therefore, God has limited the atoning sacrifice to be effective only to save those he has chosen. This is the rabbit hole that the doctrine of the inherent wickedness of humans leads us.

You have half truth here, and half none truth about Christianity. Christianity viewpoint: There is nothing mankind can do to save himself. Nothing. Period.

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There is no specific name mentioned in that scripture. God desires to save everybody. Not just some, a few, EVERYBODY. This wasn’t given to a select few. The offer was made to everybody. Whosoever will come the bible says. That is not a rabbit hole, that is a way out of this mess.

That’s like you and a group of your friends having been sentenced by a judge to pay back money you stole plus a fine. And the judge orders each of you to pay it back plus 15% to teach you a lesson. And all of you are flat broke at this point. And either you pay it back plus the fines, or ALL of you are going to prison. I’m wealthy, and I love all of you, so I pay ALL of the money you owe, with the fines PLUS MORE on top of that. I OVER pay in fact. I go to where you are all in jail and tell you what I did and say “let’s go. You are ALL free�. And you are sitting and arguing with me “I don’t believe you paid�, or in the case of some “I don’t even believe you exist to pay it�…or “how did you get the money to pay it�, or “I need to see some proof first that you paid�. The fact is the debt was paid. In fact it was over paid. You NOT believing that doesn’t matter. I’m only going to do as much as I can to get you to believe me, but I can’t MAKE you believe me. I can show you a document that states so, and you say “ that’s fake�. I can show you some other people that I paid for also and who believe me, and you can say “their lying�. I can sit and try to reason with you.

You know what’s going to happen, I’m going to strive with you only so long, before I say “you know what I love you, but take your punishment then. I can’t make you believe�. God says:
New International Version
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal

So I take the people who believe me and we leave. You sit in jail, awaiting your final punishment which will for SURE be prison. In fact you tell the judge that you don’t accept my payment. You not believing me is calling me a liar. Now here are some multimillion dollar questions: Did I pay EVERYBODY’s debt? And, if you want to sit and take your punishment, whose fault is it? And did I cause you to commit the crime?

Here is your false dilemma. Are humans inherently good or inherently evil? How about a little of both?

I'm going with inherently evil. Nobody has to teach a 4-5 year old how to lie. So where do they get that from?

The chances that you will be deliberately killed by another human is less now than at any other point in human history. Humans are dying less often from violent crime; less often from war and less often by being killed by their own state than ever before. Public executions used to be entertainment. Religious heresy used to be a capital crime and the justification for war.

I’ll see you an execution and raise you a Darfur Genocide, Holocaust, or Vietnam War just to name a few. How many people died by execution? How many people do you think died in just say in the Holocaust? (Which wasn’t that long ago). Yeah if you live in a nice modern easy society like the USA your chances of dying in a violent crime may be “less�. But the USA makes a very small percentage of this world. What exactly do you think the odds are, for a person dying of a violent crime, are in a 3rd world country?

Even if your chances of being murdered are 1:100,000, is that still acceptable? My argument is that man isn’t getting any better and God is the solution to fix the entire problem. Your argument is that there are acceptable numbers, and things aren’t really that bad? If one person is murdered, that’s bad. Very very bad. Solution not found. There are no acceptable numbers to me. I want a solution that takes care of the entire problem.

We have more of a consensus of what good is than ever before. Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The reason why those people hell bent on world domination did so was because we didn’t have a “Universal Declaration of Human Rights�? They essentially didn’t get the memo? Or it just wasn’t written yet? If that document would have only existed during Hitler’s time. We could just sat Hitler down and let him read it, and I’m SURE we would have come to some understanding. The rest of the world Hitler, has agreed on “this� being good. Give it a try. Do you think he would have come to that same consensus?

Or during the next G8, give everyone this document. There are a couple countries you might want to make sure have multiple copies! If they already got it, then next time they have a humanitarian crisis just point back to page 8? You cannot get humanity to agree on what “good� is. That's Impossible! and even if you could, you still couldn't get them to follow it. What good is a univeral whatchamacallit if nobody follows it, other than a nice pretty piece of paper?

I agree. But that source cannot be a made up God. You cannot get away with, "X is good because our prophet says that the God revealed it to him." We can agree on what is good, but not if we look to divine revelation.

Again you believe it’s a made up God, I don’t. You can’t get humanity to agree on what is good, on anything. What do you think democracy is? The idea of the MAJORITY rules? The majority rules because you can’t get EVERYONE to agree. I can’t even get a group of people on my board to agree if it’s a good idea to replace the plumbing in our building. We’ve been fighting forever. And that has NOTHING to do with God. LOL If everyone had to agree nothing would ever get done! You cannot get humanity to agree on “right� and “Wrong�….never going to happen. That’s why you have different laws in different countries. You can do something one place and “break� the law and go overseas and do the same thing, and it not be a crime.

God's government is not a democracy, it's a Kingdom with a set of stardarnds that he could care less if humanity agrees with them, or not.

I don't understand this one. God wants to forgive us, but he promised that he would torture us forever, if we were not perfect. So to keep his promise, he sent his own son to become a human, to die, thus as one human for one really bad weekend, taking on the punishment of eternity for thousands, millions or billions of humans. How does this make sense?

Again you are misconstruing Christianity.
The bible says that hell was made for the Devil and his angels. But you do the same crime, you get the same time! The Devil and his angels disobeyed God, and we disobeyed God. Shouldn’t we get the same punishment? God said he made hell for demons. But humanity has chosen the same path.

If a person goes to hell, they are going for one reason. Not because of adultery, fornication, or lying, or stealing, sexual orientation, cheating, murder….whatever. You go to hell because of 1 reason. ONE. That’s it. You rejected Jesus. He paid the price and you refused it. That’s it. Rejecting Jesus.

In that scenario above you’ll notice I didn’t even ask you what you did. I didn’t care. I loved you and wanted to see you free. So I myself paid for your freedom, regardless of whatever you did. You just wouldn’t believe me, so you sit in punishment. Again whose fault is that? I didn’t say I need you to promise to not do whatever it was that got you in trouble the first place. I didn’t say you have to pay me back. I didn’t say you better straighten up.

Now I would LIKE for you to straighten up. But it is my belief that showing love to you would cause you to WANT to act right. The bible says the love of God calls those to repentance. Somebody does something overwhelming good for you, that you couldn’t do…. Don’t you want to show them love in return? God doesn’t WANT to forgive you. He has ALREADY forgiven you. Forgiveness for sins was granted. It’s been done. You just won’t accept it.

That scripture says above that “God so LOVED the world that He GAVE..�.
He gave Jesus as payment for that hell judgment for mankind.
All those tenses are in the past. It's done. All in the past. God forgave. It's paid. But if you are determine to take the punishment, what exactly is God supposed to do?

The charge against humanity is severe that’s why the judgment is so severe. It’s not that we are charged with failure to pay a parking ticket here. Humanity is originally charged with high treason against God. Man didn't believe God, didn't obey God. We screwed up eternal PERFECTION. God created the world eternally perfect and we screwed that up, so what exactly do people think that punishment should look like? A slight slap on the wrist? Then God forgives humanity, and humanity rejects that forgiveness. God that perfect world of yours that we screwed up, whoops....and by the way we are not sorry....we reject your forgiveness. So what kind of punishment does one expect to receive for this?

[sleepyhead]

Atheist/Humanist. I think religion is a handicap and undermines critical thinking. People take a holy book (insert holy book) and close their mind to that book and only that book. Everything else if it is not in line with that book is taboo. The holy books determine what they believe. Sad really

Hello nickman,

Actually athieism is a handicap to developing your critical thinking skill. After deciding to be an athiest you don't have anything to critically think about. Is reincarnation true or do we only come here once? Does God have an absolute knowledge of the future or is the future unknowable? What are angels? Athiest don't have to think about all this stuff at all.