Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Getting to know more about a particular group

Moderator: Moderators

Fides et Veritas

Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #1

Post by Fides et Veritas »

1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24864
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #2

Post by Goat »

Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

Well, I am not a JW, I am Jewish.

What you are seeing is the 'majestic plural'.. where a plurality is used to show a magnified position. You have to not only look at the noun, you have to look at the verb following.. In the Pslam 110, the verb following is singular .. which means it is a magnified position, rather than a plural.

Moses is refereed to a s 'Elohim' over Aaron. That does not mean that Moses was divine, or that there were more than one Moses. It means that Moses was in an important position, over Aaron.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Fides et Veritas

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #3

Post by Fides et Veritas »

Goat wrote:
Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

Well, I am not a JW, I am Jewish.

What you are seeing is the 'majestic plural'.. where a plurality is used to show a magnified position. You have to not only look at the noun, you have to look at the verb following.. In the Psalm 110, the verb following is singular .. which means it is a magnified position, rather than a plural.

Moses is refereed to as 'Elohim' over Aaron. That does not mean that Moses was divine, or that there were more than one Moses. It means that Moses was in an important position, over Aaron.

I should have clarified which use of Elohim I was using. I was referring to Elohim as it is used in the Genesis account to refer to the Creator. My mistake.

Can you go into more detail on the Psalms 101 part? I see David refer to his Lord's Lord. I take this a representation of OT understanding that God and the Word were separate beings.

Thanks. Never thought I would get a Jew on this thread but glad I did!!

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24864
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #4

Post by Goat »

Fides et Veritas wrote:
Goat wrote:
Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

Well, I am not a JW, I am Jewish.

What you are seeing is the 'majestic plural'.. where a plurality is used to show a magnified position. You have to not only look at the noun, you have to look at the verb following.. In the Psalm 110, the verb following is singular .. which means it is a magnified position, rather than a plural.

Moses is refereed to as 'Elohim' over Aaron. That does not mean that Moses was divine, or that there were more than one Moses. It means that Moses was in an important position, over Aaron.

I should have clarified which use of Elohim I was using. I was referring to Elohim as it is used in the Genesis account to refer to the Creator. My mistake.

Can you go into more detail on the Psalms 101 part? I see David refer to his Lord's Lord. I take this a representation of OT understanding that God and the Word were separate beings.

Thanks. Never thought I would get a Jew on this thread but glad I did!!
Which specific passage in Genesis.. there are a number that use Elohim.

As for Psalm 110, it is not a Psalm FROM David, it's a Psalm ABOUT David. The Lord of my Lord is God, and "My Lord" is David... the first part is God speaking to David ... .. It's not 'the word' being a separate being.. it is David being himself, and having God talk to him..

Some of this Psalm is obscure, since the 'viewpoint' of who is speaking changes often.... but as far as I can see, 'the word' is not there.. it is merely David and God. .. and David is most definitely a separate being from God. The idea of 'The word' being associated with God is something that came centuries later, when Philo of Alexandria combined Greek philosophy with some Jewish concepts. Trying to push that concept onto any of the Psalms is anachronistic. The concepts from Philo never did catch on with Mainstream Judaism, but seems to be the basis for a lot of the early Christianity.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Fides et Veritas

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #5

Post by Fides et Veritas »

Goat wrote:
Fides et Veritas wrote:
Goat wrote:
Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

Well, I am not a JW, I am Jewish.

What you are seeing is the 'majestic plural'.. where a plurality is used to show a magnified position. You have to not only look at the noun, you have to look at the verb following.. In the Psalm 110, the verb following is singular .. which means it is a magnified position, rather than a plural.

Moses is refereed to as 'Elohim' over Aaron. That does not mean that Moses was divine, or that there were more than one Moses. It means that Moses was in an important position, over Aaron.

I should have clarified which use of Elohim I was using. I was referring to Elohim as it is used in the Genesis account to refer to the Creator. My mistake.

Can you go into more detail on the Psalms 101 part? I see David refer to his Lord's Lord. I take this a representation of OT understanding that God and the Word were separate beings.

Thanks. Never thought I would get a Jew on this thread but glad I did!!
Which specific passage in Genesis.. there are a number that use Elohim.

As for Psalm 110, it is not a Psalm FROM David, it's a Psalm ABOUT David. The Lord of my Lord is God, and "My Lord" is David... the first part is God speaking to David ... .. It's not 'the word' being a separate being.. it is David being himself, and having God talk to him..

Some of this Psalm is obscure, since the 'viewpoint' of who is speaking changes often.... but as far as I can see, 'the word' is not there.. it is merely David and God. .. and David is most definitely a separate being from God. The idea of 'The word' being associated with God is something that came centuries later, when Philo of Alexandria combined Greek philosophy with some Jewish concepts. Trying to push that concept onto any of the Psalms is anachronistic. The concepts from Philo never did catch on with Mainstream Judaism, but seems to be the basis for a lot of the early Christianity.

I appreciate the input and I enjoy the perspective on the Psalm. Thanks!!

As far as Genesis, I don't have a Bible in front of me right now nor do I have a my Strong's. So I am not sure the all the specific verses in Genesis but I do know that it is in Genesis 1 and it is referring to God/ Creator as Elohim.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24864
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #6

Post by Goat »

Fides et Veritas wrote:

I appreciate the input and I enjoy the perspective on the Psalm. Thanks!!

As far as Genesis, I don't have a Bible in front of me right now nor do I have a my Strong's. So I am not sure the all the specific verses in Genesis but I do know that it is in Genesis 1 and it is referring to God/ Creator as Elohim.

There are several places that is used I believe.

In Genesis 1:1, the word following Elohim (Bara) is in singular form also

The sources i trust say that Genesis 1:26 has God talking to the 'heavenly hosts'... i.e the angels.. I personally think this is a remnant of the place where the story was adopted from.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
JaneD
Student
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:54 pm

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #7

Post by JaneD »

As I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I would like to answer this question, if I may.
Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.
The ASV renders this verse..."Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

There is no ambiguity when the tetragrammaton is translated correctly. This is Jehovah speaking to his Logos, his 'right hand man', his beloved first-born son.

David goes on to say in verse 2..."Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion: Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

As King of his Father's kingdom, Jesus is to rule for a time "in the midst of his enemies". Separating the 'sheep from the goats' is done whilst the "good news of the kingdom is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness" to all mankind, before "the end" comes. (Matt 24:14) This witness will be the basis of his judgment and Jesus said it will be just like it was in the days of Noah. People will "take no note" of the warning. (Matt 24:36-39)
2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.
That is our understanding also, except that we believe that the pre-human Jesus was a separate entity to his Heavenly Father. He is god-like, but he is not God. (the word "god" is not used exclusively of the Father. John 10:34-36)

He never claimed to be God and he directed all worship to his Father. Jehovah is his God too. (John 20:17) This is proven by his words in Revelation 3:12..."He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name." (ASV)
This was said after Jesus returned to heaven. How does God worship another equal part of God? It's a nonsense.
Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?
"At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ’El Gib·bohr′, “Mighty God� (not ’El Shad·dai′ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).

The plural form, ’e·lim′, is used when referring to other gods, such as at Exodus 15:11 (“gods�). It is also used as the plural of majesty and excellence, as in Psalm 89:6: “Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God [bi·beneh′ ’E·lim′]?� That the plural form is used to denote a single individual here and in a number of other places is supported by the translation of ’E·lim′ by the singular form The·os′ in the Greek Septuagint; likewise by Deus in the Latin Vulgate.
The Hebrew word ’elo·him′ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.� ’Elo·him′ is the plural of ’eloh′ah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men." (Insight Volumes WTBTS)

Hope that answers your question. :-k

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24864
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #8

Post by Goat »

JaneD wrote:
"At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ’El Gib·bohr′, “Mighty God� (not ’El Shad·dai′ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).
\
Except of course, it is not talking about Jesus at all. those are the royal names of Hezekiah..

The plural form, ’e·lim′, is used when referring to other gods, such as at Exodus 15:11 (“gods�). It is also used as the plural of majesty and excellence, as in Psalm 89:6: “Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God [bi·beneh′ ’E·lim′]?� That the plural form is used to denote a single individual here and in a number of other places is supported by the translation of ’E·lim′ by the singular form The·os′ in the Greek Septuagint; likewise by Deus in the Latin Vulgate.
The Hebrew word ’elo·him′ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.� ’Elo·him′ is the plural of ’eloh′ah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men." (Insight Volumes WTBTS)
the plural form 'Elohim' is not a plural, but a magnification., showing a position of power. For example, Moses is referred to an Elohim (lord) over Arron. This does not mean Moses was God, nor does it mean there was more than one Moses.
It means that the importance of Moses was magnified (see Exodus 4:17 and Exodus 7:1)
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
JaneD
Student
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:54 pm

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #9

Post by JaneD »

Goat wrote:
JaneD wrote:
"At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ’El Gib·bohr′, “Mighty God� (not ’El Shad·dai′ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).
Except of course, it is not talking about Jesus at all. those are the royal names of Hezekiah..
From the Complete Jewish Bible.....

Isaiah 9:5, 6:
"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace], in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this."


Many will say this is a historical passage concerning King Hezekiah...long past and nothing to do with Messiah....but unless Hezekiah was going to become a Father of Eternity and go from being a King to a Prince and to "extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever."....this cannot possibly be talking about Hezekiah.

Isaiah was prophetically referring to Jesus the Christ....the only one who could perpetuate and secure the kingdom of David forever.

I know this is not in the interpretation of the Jewish understanding of the scripture.
In other parts of the Bible, prophesy about future events is written as though it has already taken place.

Revelation 20:13-15 is such a prophetic passage. "The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire." (CJB)

All this is yet future but it is written as though it has already happened.

the plural form 'Elohim' is not a plural, but a magnification., showing a position of power. For example, Moses is referred to an Elohim (lord) over Arron. This does not mean Moses was God, nor does it mean there was more than one Moses.
It means that the importance of Moses was magnified (see Exodus 4:17 and Exodus 7:1)
I said....
Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men."
I believe I mentioned what the plural of 'Elohim' means in relation to Jehovah etc...

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24864
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #10

Post by Goat »

JaneD wrote:
Goat wrote:
JaneD wrote:
"At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ’El Gib·bohr′, “Mighty God� (not ’El Shad·dai′ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).
Except of course, it is not talking about Jesus at all. those are the royal names of Hezekiah..
From the Complete Jewish Bible.....

Isaiah 9:5, 6:
"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace], in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this."


Many will say this is a historical passage concerning King Hezekiah...long past and nothing to do with Messiah....but unless Hezekiah was going to become a Father of Eternity and go from being a King to a Prince and to "extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever."....this cannot possibly be talking about Hezekiah.
You are incorrect. It ids precisely the son of King Ahaz. No need to go further than the current events of WHEN that was written. It's not a prophecy, but rather Isaiah writing to what was him the present.

Isaiah was prophetically referring to Jesus the Christ....the only one who could perpetuate and secure the kingdom of David forever.

I know this is not in the interpretation of the Jewish understanding of the scripture.
In other parts of the Bible, prophesy about future events is written as though it has already taken place.
Not in the Jewish scriptures. that is not a technique that was used by the Jewish writers. To say so , well is highly inaccurate and giving false information.
Revelation 20:13-15 is such a prophetic passage. "The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire." (CJB)

All this is yet future but it is written as though it has already happened.
Anybody trying to use revelation for the future is just trying to read into a lot of very strange symbolism. It , however, is not jewish writing, and therefore has nothign to do with Isaiah, and how Isaiah wrote.


the plural form 'Elohim' is not a plural, but a magnification., showing a position of power. For example, Moses is referred to an Elohim (lord) over Arron. This does not mean Moses was God, nor does it mean there was more than one Moses.
It means that the importance of Moses was magnified (see Exodus 4:17 and Exodus 7:1)
I said....
Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men."
I believe I mentioned what the plural of 'Elohim' means in relation to Jehovah etc...
And I noticedx .. you didn't bother to counter the points.. so .. well, it doesn't make for very good claims on your part
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Post Reply