Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

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Fides et Veritas

Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #1

Post by Fides et Veritas »

1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #11

Post by JaneD »

Goat wrote: You are incorrect. It ids precisely the son of King Ahaz. No need to go further than the current events of WHEN that was written. It's not a prophecy, but rather Isaiah writing to what was him the present.


That might be the Jewish view but we know how they feel about Jesus. No scripture would indicate to them that Jesus could possibly be the Messiah.
How long have the Jews been waiting for this one now? Is he still coming or have they given up hope that he will ever arrive? If and when he does arrive, will he have the credentials to prove that he is the one? Will he do more than Jesus did?
Not in the Jewish scriptures. that is not a technique that was used by the Jewish writers. To say so , well is highly inaccurate and giving false information.
Through Isaiah, Jehovah foretells a conqueror who will both save God’s people from Babylon and bring judgment upon their enemies. Jehovah states
"Who has raised from the east one who is just and called him to be in his service?
He hands nations over to him and subjects kings to him; his sword reduces them to dust, his bow to driven straw. He pursues them, passing on unscathed, hardly touching the path with his feet. Whose work is this? Who has brought it about? He who called the generations from the beginning,
“I, Adonai, am the first; and I am the same with those who are last.�

(Isa 41:2-4 CJB)

Who is the one to be roused from the sunrise, from eastern parts? The countries of Medo-Persia and Elam are located east of Babylon. From there marches Cyrus the Persian, along with his mighty armies. (Isaiah 41:25; 45:1-4, 13; 46:11)

"That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jerusalem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." (Isa 44:28 ASV)

Though Cyrus is not a worshiper of Jehovah, he acts in harmony with the will of God. Cyrus subdues kings, and these are scattered like dust before him. In pursuit of conquest, he passes “peacefully,� or safely, over paths not customarily traveled, overcoming all obstacles. By the year 539 B.C.E., Cyrus reaches the city of Babylon and overthrows it.
As a result, God’s people are released so that they might return to Jerusalem to reestablish pure worship. (Ezra 1:1-7)
Thus, through Isaiah, Jehovah foretells the rise of Cyrus long before that king is born. (The book of Isaiah was completed in 732 BCE) Only the true God can accurately prophesy such a thing. It is written as if it is taking place almost two hundred years before it happened.
Anybody trying to use revelation for the future is just trying to read into a lot of very strange symbolism. It , however, is not jewish writing, and therefore has nothign to do with Isaiah, and how Isaiah wrote.
All of the writers of the Christian scriptures were Jewish. Jesus was Jewish. The very scriptures referred to in the NT were the Hebrew scriptures, so how can it be "not Jewish"?
The Christians were originally viewed as a sect of Judaism.
Before his accusers it was said to Paul....
"But we do think it would be appropriate to hear your views from you, yourself; for all we know about this sect is that people everywhere speak against it.� (Acts 28:22 CJB)
And I noticedx .. you didn't bother to counter the points.. so .. well, it doesn't make for very good claims on your part
Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men."
What points did I not counter? :confused2:

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #12

Post by Goat »

JaneD wrote:
Goat wrote: You are incorrect. It ids precisely the son of King Ahaz. No need to go further than the current events of WHEN that was written. It's not a prophecy, but rather Isaiah writing to what was him the present.


That might be the Jewish view but we know how they feel about Jesus. No scripture would indicate to them that Jesus could possibly be the Messiah.
How long have the Jews been waiting for this one now? Is he still coming or have they given up hope that he will ever arrive? If and when he does arrive, will he have the credentials to prove that he is the one? Will he do more than Jesus did?
Not in the Jewish scriptures. that is not a technique that was used by the Jewish writers. To say so , well is highly inaccurate and giving false information.
Through Isaiah, Jehovah foretells a conqueror who will both save God’s people from Babylon and bring judgment upon their enemies. Jehovah states
"Who has raised from the east one who is just and called him to be in his service?
He hands nations over to him and subjects kings to him; his sword reduces them to dust, his bow to driven straw. He pursues them, passing on unscathed, hardly touching the path with his feet. Whose work is this? Who has brought it about? He who called the generations from the beginning,
“I, Adonai, am the first; and I am the same with those who are last.�

(Isa 41:2-4 CJB)

Who is the one to be roused from the sunrise, from eastern parts? The countries of Medo-Persia and Elam are located east of Babylon. From there marches Cyrus the Persian, along with his mighty armies. (Isaiah 41:25; 45:1-4, 13; 46:11)

"That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jerusalem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." (Isa 44:28 ASV)

Though Cyrus is not a worshiper of Jehovah, he acts in harmony with the will of God. Cyrus subdues kings, and these are scattered like dust before him. In pursuit of conquest, he passes “peacefully,� or safely, over paths not customarily traveled, overcoming all obstacles. By the year 539 B.C.E., Cyrus reaches the city of Babylon and overthrows it.
As a result, God’s people are released so that they might return to Jerusalem to reestablish pure worship. (Ezra 1:1-7)
Thus, through Isaiah, Jehovah foretells the rise of Cyrus long before that king is born. (The book of Isaiah was completed in 732 BCE) Only the true God can accurately prophesy such a thing. It is written as if it is taking place almost two hundred years before it happened.
Anybody trying to use revelation for the future is just trying to read into a lot of very strange symbolism. It , however, is not jewish writing, and therefore has nothign to do with Isaiah, and how Isaiah wrote.
All of the writers of the Christian scriptures were Jewish. Jesus was Jewish. The very scriptures referred to in the NT were the Hebrew scriptures, so how can it be "not Jewish"?
The Christians were originally viewed as a sect of Judaism.
Before his accusers it was said to Paul....
"But we do think it would be appropriate to hear your views from you, yourself; for all we know about this sect is that people everywhere speak against it.� (Acts 28:22 CJB)
And I noticedx .. you didn't bother to counter the points.. so .. well, it doesn't make for very good claims on your part
Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ’Elo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men."
What points did I not counter? :confused2:
\

Any of them, actually, since you are using bad translations out of context.

What Acts says about Isaiah not not relevant about what is actually written in Isaiah.

Care to do a head to head , with the topic 'Does the various authors of Isaiah write about Jesus'?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #13

Post by JaneD »

Goat wrote:
Care to do a head to head , with the topic 'Does the various authors of Isaiah write about Jesus'?
Well, since you don't really take any notice of anything that is said to you, I fail to see the point in doing so.

If you have convinced yourself that Isaiah is not speaking about the Messiah, there will be little that I can say to convince you otherwise.

It would be a wasted exercise IMO. :blink:

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #14

Post by Goat »

JaneD wrote:
Goat wrote:
Care to do a head to head , with the topic 'Does the various authors of Isaiah write about Jesus'?
Well, since you don't really take any notice of anything that is said to you, I fail to see the point in doing so.

If you have convinced yourself that Isaiah is not speaking about the Messiah, there will be little that I can say to convince you otherwise.

It would be a wasted exercise IMO. :blink:
In other words, .. you recite what is given to you, yet, you are unwilling to look at things in context, using the surrounding passages in Isaiah, and with references to the actual Hebrew... and when context and the actual Hebrew is refernced, you can't make your case.

That's ok.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Fides et Veritas wrote: 1) Psalms 110 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
I feel this verse is proof that David knew there were more than one God being.

2) I Corinthians 10:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV
With this verse I included the entire section, but verse four is the main part. I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ). I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament. The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

Also how do you explain the usage of Elohim. A Hebrew plural noun like family, group, church, etc.?

Thanks.

Hello there,

Are you still interested in the JEHOVAH'S WITNESS view? We believe that two different "Lords" are being spoken of here.
Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet.
http://biblehub.com/psalms/110-1.htm
So no we do not believe that that this passage proves there is more than one [Almighty] God; only that David was prophetically refering to The LORD (YHWH/Yehowah) JEHOVAH (in English) saying to "[his - David's] Lord" (The Future Messiah/Jesus Christ) to sit at his (Almighty God's) right side.


>> I contend that this verse proves that the being in the Cloud and Pillar of fire is none other than the Word (Logos/ Christ).

Yes, that it is certainly a possibility that Jesus (The Logos) was sent by his Father (Jehovah Almighty God) as his reprsentative to speak for him in ancient times. He (Jesus/Michael) may well also have been the angel Moses was told to obey.

>> I understand him to be the God involved in the Old Testament.

You are certainly free to believe that if that is your pleasure.

>> The Father has never dealt with mankind except through the Word/ Christ.

We cannot catagorically say what the situation was like for Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall into sin, but since then there is no doubt that His *SON*, representative and chief spokesman "the Logos" (Jesus) has indeed been sent with His (Jehovah's) proclamations, judgements and instructions to deal with mankind (including the Nation of Israel) on several (but not all - see below) occassions. I'm not sure what that has to do with Jesus being Almighty God YHWH though. Sorry if I'm missing something here.

Anyway, I hope that helps clarify the Jehovah's Witness view,

Regards,
JW


The following are extracts from the Jehovah's Witness journal The Watchtower, May 1st 1990 p. 30 While it is dealing with the question "Did Jehovah God speak to Adam directly, or did he speak through the Word, the only-begotten Son of God?" The following comments I think are quite relevent to this question.
The Bible does not give us an explicit answer to this question. While God could have spoken directly to his perfect human son in Eden, likely He communicated with Adam through the Word.

The Bible often speaks of God’s doing things when he actually did them through one or more angels.

...

Consider, for example, the occasion when Moses went up on Mount Sinai. Exodus 19:21-24 relates: “Jehovah now said to Moses . . . At this Moses said to Jehovah . . . However, Jehovah said to him.� Then the account of the giving of the Ten Commandments is introduced this way: “God proceeded to speak all these words.� (Exodus 20:1)

...

Still, we have further revelation on this. The apostle Paul wrote about the Law: “It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.� [...] So God did not speak the words of the Law with his own personal voice, nor did he use the Logos. Rather, he chose to use other angels.

What is the basic point, though? Often when we read of God speaking to humans, we note that he did so through obedient spirit creatures who spoke for him. (Compare Genesis 18:2, 3, 33; 19:1; Exodus 3:2-4; Judges 6:11, 12, 20-22.) Jesus’ designation as the Word suggests that he was one whom God often used to communicate with his other creatures.

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Re: Jehovah Witness: How do you view these verses?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I failed to mention and that the divine name (YHWH) Jehovah is mentioned in Psalms 110. Leaving it in place would remove a lot of confusion as to speaker identity.



JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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