Questions for the LDS

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southern cross
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Questions for the LDS

Post #1

Post by southern cross »

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

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Nickman
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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #21

Post by Nickman »

[Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

So I could ask if Joseph Smith was a true prophet in prayer (as I once did) and got a "NO." Now did I find the truth in this? Im sure you believe he is so you might say no. Now I know many people who got a "YES" to this question while being a member, but then they started researching the Church History (official church history) and then the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon and got a resounding "Hell NO". The real evidence showed them that this "yes" they got was not true. So case in point, it wasn't until they allowed evidence to speak for itself instead of pondering in their head what the truth was that they found it.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #22

Post by dianaiad »

Nickman wrote: [Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

So I could ask if Joseph Smith was a true prophet in prayer (as I once did) and got a "NO." Now did I find the truth in this? Im sure you believe he is so you might say no. Now I know many people who got a "YES" to this question while being a member, but then they started researching the Church History (official church history) and then the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon and got a resounding "Hell NO". The real evidence showed them that this "yes" they got was not true. So case in point, it wasn't until they allowed evidence to speak for itself instead of pondering in their head what the truth was that they found it.
You have your story.

I did the same sort of research (trust me, there isn't anything about Joseph Smith and his life I have NOT looked at, warts and all) as you; perhaps more. I know my church history, also warts and all. I've read the books. I've studied and I've thought....and interweaving all of that, I've prayed for guidance and for confirmation. I think the whole thing is true.

Given this, why should I allow YOUR bitterness to change my mind? I don't know why you left. I only know why I'm staying.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #23

Post by Nickman »

dianaiad wrote:
Nickman wrote: [Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

So I could ask if Joseph Smith was a true prophet in prayer (as I once did) and got a "NO." Now did I find the truth in this? Im sure you believe he is so you might say no. Now I know many people who got a "YES" to this question while being a member, but then they started researching the Church History (official church history) and then the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon and got a resounding "Hell NO". The real evidence showed them that this "yes" they got was not true. So case in point, it wasn't until they allowed evidence to speak for itself instead of pondering in their head what the truth was that they found it.
You have your story.

I did the same sort of research (trust me, there isn't anything about Joseph Smith and his life I have NOT looked at, warts and all) as you; perhaps more. I know my church history, also warts and all. I've read the books. I've studied and I've thought....and interweaving all of that, I've prayed for guidance and for confirmation. I think the whole thing is true.

Given this, why should I allow YOUR bitterness to change my mind? I don't know why you left. I only know why I'm staying.
Let me guess all that you researched were church approved sources? You must not have investigated the BoA to any extent. You know they have the actual papyrus JS translated from? The church (1960's) had it translated and examined by Egyptologists and they showed that JS new diddly squat about Egyptian. He didn't get one character correct. He changed Horus into Abraham, Osiris into Yahweh, and Isis into a man. Don't forget Anubis into a man instead of a Jackal. We have the facsimiles he traced and drew in the missing parts which were incorrect. We have his journal that listed each character that is matched up to the text of the scrolls he "translated" and the definitions of each are wrong. We have the affidavit from Emma Smith when she gave all of these documents to the Chicago Museum stating that these were what JS used to translate. The affidavit has also been validated by historians. When the church funded this examination they were very enthusiastic to prove once and for all that JS had abilities beyond his own scope. Once the evidence came back, the LDS church said that he didn't translate the text literally, but instead interpreted a deeper meaning from it despite the fact that JS, himself, stated that he was translating directly from the text. We know this from his very own journal entries that accompany the texts themselves.

If you really researched then you didn't do much.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #24

Post by sleepyhead »

southern cross wrote: Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.
Hello southern cross,

I'm no longer LDS but I'' put in my 2 cents anyway. Most of the questions above are SECRET OF THE UNIVERSE questions. If God wanted us to know this stuff he had 40 years to tell Moses. Jesus talked in parables with regards to the afterlife. Why would God wait until Joseph Smith to reveal all these secrets, and on the off chance that he did want it revealed why only tell JS?
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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #25

Post by southern cross »

dianaiad wrote:
southern cross wrote: Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
yep.
southern cross wrote:Where were our souls when this question was posed?[/quote

In the 'pre-existence.' We have no clue 'where' that is. With our Father in Heaven, though.
southern cross wrote:Was this question posed by god?
The choice was, yes.
southern cross wrote:Were we in the presence of god at the time?
If not literally, certainly we knew Who was offering. One of those.
southern cross wrote:Was there an alternative?[.quote]

Sure. Not coming.
southern cross wrote:Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Yep.
southern cross wrote:Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Dunno. Probably more. Maybe not.
southern cross wrote:Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Nope. Oh, everybody in heaven will be "Mormons," of sorts, because, well.....

Admittance to a pool is not determined by whether one is wet before one dives. However, once you jump, you get wet.

It does seem a bit unfair to bar admittance to heaven for something over which one has no control, doesn't it? I believe that one is judged by what one does with the truth one has, not upon whether one has all the truth.
Ok I'm back.:shock: Why would any soul abandon heaven with god, allegedly the ultimate happiness to embark on a crusade that gave a much less than 50% chance of returning to that happiness? Especially if the alternative was just staying and experiencing that happiness? I mean your discarding the royal flush looking for four tens. Worst ever bet. if we were in the presence of god, then allegedly we had to have been sinless, why would we choose to take the chance of becoming sinful and lose our ability to reside with god where we already were? Are we all the special needs souls? You know a sandwich short of a picnic. I mean no disrespect to special needs kids, I've looked after them, wiped their bums and loved them. But it would seem that those of us who come here are missing something in the equation. If we have had as estimated 100 billion humans live here and it's the smart ones who don't come, how many of them are there?

Oh I must address this
It does seem a bit unfair to bar admittance to heaven for something over which one has no control, doesn't it? I believe that one is judged by what one does with the truth one has, not upon whether one has all the truth.
Isn't that just YOU, isn't it just your much greater sense of justice and love and understanding than the god you believe in is portrayed as by your religion as?
Last edited by southern cross on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #26

Post by southern cross »

sleepyhead wrote:
southern cross wrote: Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.
Hello southern cross,

I'm no longer LDS but I'' put in my 2 cents anyway. Most of the questions above are SECRET OF THE UNIVERSE questions. If God wanted us to know this stuff he had 40 years to tell Moses. Jesus talked in parables with regards to the afterlife. Why would God wait until Joseph Smith to reveal all these secrets, and on the off chance that he did want it revealed why only tell JS?
Thanks sleepy, I appreciate your 2c. This discussion has been generated by a very enjoyable encounter with two LDS missionaries a few days ago. I'm not in the least interested in converting, but these were just some of the questions that they really struggled with. They were obviously just kids, but very nice kids thrown into battle with a hardened veteran, poor buggers.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #27

Post by dianaiad »

Nickman wrote:
dianaiad wrote:
Nickman wrote: [Replying to post 15 by dianaiad]

So I could ask if Joseph Smith was a true prophet in prayer (as I once did) and got a "NO." Now did I find the truth in this? Im sure you believe he is so you might say no. Now I know many people who got a "YES" to this question while being a member, but then they started researching the Church History (official church history) and then the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon and got a resounding "Hell NO". The real evidence showed them that this "yes" they got was not true. So case in point, it wasn't until they allowed evidence to speak for itself instead of pondering in their head what the truth was that they found it.
You have your story.

I did the same sort of research (trust me, there isn't anything about Joseph Smith and his life I have NOT looked at, warts and all) as you; perhaps more. I know my church history, also warts and all. I've read the books. I've studied and I've thought....and interweaving all of that, I've prayed for guidance and for confirmation. I think the whole thing is true.

Given this, why should I allow YOUR bitterness to change my mind? I don't know why you left. I only know why I'm staying.
Let me guess all that you researched were church approved sources?
I do love irony.

Aren't you doing the same thing to me, now, that you are accusing me of? You are the one, now, assuming that the reason I didn't come to the same conclusion you have is because I did it wrong.

There is a reason that I really dislike anti-sources when investigating any belief system. It's because I read 'em all. At least, I read all (well, not all...some of it is purely unreadable and not worth the fuel it would take to burn it) the anti-Mormon stuff.

I'm willing to accept that you came to a conclusion based upon whatever it is based upon. Please don't assume that I am some brain washed zombie because I think differently.

Yeah, I could be wrong. I don't think I am, obviously, but I could be. You, however, are acting like the very worst of fundamentalists in assuming that if I don't believe and think exactly like you do, that I must not have looked at everything, don't think for myself...that I 'did it wrong."

Get over yourself, Nickman.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #28

Post by Nickman »

[Replying to post 27 by dianaiad]

Theres a difference when a Christian tells me I did something wrong which made me become an atheist. The difference is that they cannot show what or how I did so mething wrong. I showed an absolute fact about the BoA. Any person who looks at the real evidence behind the BoA cannot continue to believe JS was a prophet and that the BoA was actually from the documents JS translated. We have 100% demonstrable evidence that Smith did not do as he said and that he had no more translating abilities than a newborn baby. So when I say you "did it wrong" which didn't actually say I am speaking truth because I can show you what you didn't look at. If you did look at it and continue to believe then you live in a delusion because the evidence is insurmountable.

Let me ask how you looked at the BoA evidence? We have every last bit of of what JS used to make the BoA. It can be and has been analyzed by professionals. The verdict is in. I will say again, there is no way a person can continue to believe JS was prophet of god when they look at the evidence unless they live in delusion. The evidence is insurmountable.

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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #29

Post by Nickman »

southern cross wrote:
sleepyhead wrote:
southern cross wrote: Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.
Hello southern cross,

I'm no longer LDS but I'' put in my 2 cents anyway. Most of the questions above are SECRET OF THE UNIVERSE questions. If God wanted us to know this stuff he had 40 years to tell Moses. Jesus talked in parables with regards to the afterlife. Why would God wait until Joseph Smith to reveal all these secrets, and on the off chance that he did want it revealed why only tell JS?
Thanks sleepy, I appreciate your 2c. This discussion has been generated by a very enjoyable encounter with two LDS missionaries a few days ago. I'm not in the least interested in converting, but these were just some of the questions that they really struggled with. They were obviously just kids, but very nice kids thrown into battle with a hardened veteran, poor buggers.
Show em this. There will be an avoidance at all costs to see it or discuss it. There may be a claim that it is anti-material. The truth is that this is an objective look at the BoA and the claims made verses the evidence we have. All the documents that JS used are in existence and have been analyzed. He failed miserably.
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Re: Questions for the LDS

Post #30

Post by Clownboat »

Nickman wrote: [Replying to post 27 by dianaiad]

Theres a difference when a Christian tells me I did something wrong which made me become an atheist. The difference is that they cannot show what or how I did so mething wrong. I showed an absolute fact about the BoA. Any person who looks at the real evidence behind the BoA cannot continue to believe JS was a prophet and that the BoA was actually from the documents JS translated. We have 100% demonstrable evidence that Smith did not do as he said and that he had no more translating abilities than a newborn baby. So when I say you "did it wrong" which didn't actually say I am speaking truth because I can show you what you didn't look at. If you did look at it and continue to believe then you live in a delusion because the evidence is insurmountable.

Let me ask how you looked at the BoA evidence? We have every last bit of of what JS used to make the BoA. It can be and has been analyzed by professionals. The verdict is in. I will say again, there is no way a person can continue to believe JS was prophet of god when they look at the evidence unless they live in delusion. The evidence is insurmountable.
The BoA to me is just one of many nails in the coffin for the LDS church, but I would love to hear the justification for it if there is any.

I have searched a bit on line, but only found evidence that backed up Nickman's (and what I have come to know) claim so far. I'm sure I have not looked enough, so it there is justification for it, I would love to examine it, because as it stands right now, "I" don't understand how anyone could belong to the Mormon faith. This non-understanding "could" be my issue, but I must doubt that until it is suggested otherwise.
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