Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream out...

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Aetixintro
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Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream out...

Post #1

Post by Aetixintro »

There is an Agnostics' Slipstream out that changes how Agnosticism will be presented in near future and it has this text to it:

"The Slipstream Argument - The requirements to Agnosticism increase..."

"One of the original formulations:

I'd like to inform you that, over the Pascal's Wager, now by new modal considerations, rather than to exist or not, that the Agnostics are logically impelled, by "ethics, meaning, (perh. sec.->) definition of God, and entailment of Heaven" to consider God, that is, they now enter first these 4 necessary entities (or else leaving Agnosticism altogether) before considering the reality of exactly God. This constitutes a refinement from earlier!

The Slipstream Argument vs. Pascal's Wager

Wikipedia presents Pascal's Wager in this way:
"It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).[1]"

The Slipstream Argument, however, REQUIRES the wondering agnostic to assume seriously the 4 (Christian/variations for other religions) constituents, such as Meaning, Description of God, Ethics (10 Commandments) and the Entailment of Heaven "into personal data-set". Without these, and you can check on Agnostic's honesty, the "emotional" Agnostic can easily be dismissed. This is a HARDER consideration of the Existence of God than Pascal' Wager and also takes higher position into eternity."

In order to fulfill the requirement for posting here, I have this question for the Agnostics, are you ready to update on Agnosticism, please?

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Agnostics be aware...

Post #11

Post by ttruscott »

Aetixintro wrote:Let's assume there are 4 main ways to God's possible existence:

Ethics (10 commandments)
Meaning (to Heaven by moral life, etc)
Definition of God ("God is spirit")
Definition of Heaven (A place of perfect goodness etc.)

Then you need to live these 4 main ways to God before you start to doubt God's existence.
1. Even Christianity itself denies that being ethical, ie, good works, as possible to gain access to GOD nor to get salvation,

2. Nor is accepting heaven a necessity to salvation and heaven is always a gift, not earned by good works,

3. Understand in the definition of GOD as a Spirit is meaningless as to the results of finding HIM, belief is written to follow faith, not understanding, Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. GOD is found by faith, not philosopho-babble.

4. Never does an understanding of heaven as a place of perfect goodness ever enter the conversations about how then are we saved or how to find GOD.

Your four ways to find GOD are meaningless in the Christian system.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Agnostics be aware...

Post #12

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 11 by ttruscott]

The point is still that there are requirements for ways to get to God in seriously questioning God's existence.

My point has been made to the Agnostics and ttruscott's promise (a strawman in some sense, but not this) of unpunished sins and Heaven too lead nowhere despite I lack the dogma to exactly cite the place in the Bible.

So I have made a philosophical point that works and ttruscott cries out "Jesus", I believe, in response, which is in most cases vain and to the effect amounting to paradox in self-flagellation. You know, the correct Christianity by some, even though faith alone should carry me far.

Through ethics, meaning and the word of God comes faith, exactly right!
Last edited by Aetixintro on Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #13

Post by wiploc »

Aetixintro wrote: [Replying to post 7 by wiploc]

Only if you seriously doubt God's existence.

If you say you have serious doubts, why not make them so?

:)
You're still not making sense.

Suppose I say that there's a lion in your bathroom, and it will kill and eat you next time you go in there.

You don't know that I'm right. That's a fair position: You don't know that I'm right. You're agnostic on the question of whether there's a lion in your bathroom. Further, you probably believe the lion isn't there, which is analogous to being a strong atheist (one who believes that gods don't exist). You are an agnostic alionist.

Now, based on absolutely nothing, I announce that you have to pass four tests before you can legitimately call yourself agnostic about the lion.

Your response is to point out that you don't know the lion is there. All it takes to not know the lion is there is to not know the lion is there, and you don't know. Therefore, you are agnostic about the lion. You point out that you don't have to take my tests to not know something. And taking my tests wouldn't make you any more agnostic.

So, finally, I get insulting and claim that you're not serious about your agnosticism.

Do you find that in any way persuasive? Does that make you want to take my agnostic tests? Does it have even the tiniest tendency to make you second guess your doubt about my lion?

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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #14

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 13 by wiploc]

Interesting.

First, in being this agnostic about the lion, I may very well take these universal tests in order to be agnostic about the lion. (For real, a lion can't be there for sure. One: I have ears and my bathroom is nearby. Two: doors are locked and the place is deadsilent. Etc.)

Second, so my aim is not to place tests on unwilling subjects, but to say something about the seriousness to which one should seek out possible-God. Of all ways to possible-God, I merely point out that these ways are the ways in which one immerse oneself. And then question God's existence in having tried to reach the place of faith, firm belief.

So this is the whole point and there's not more to it. Alright? :)
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Post #15

Post by Divine Insight »

I am not agnostic with respect to the God described by the Hebrew Bible. I am 100% confident that the Biblical God cannot exist as described in the Bible. Why? Because the Bible gives itself away as being nothing more than poorly written fiction in the extreme self-contradictions that it creates within its stories and scriptures.

In terms of any other proposed Gods, I would need to look at what is being claimed about them before I could make a firm decision on whether or not they might exist.

Also of all the Gods I have ever heard off, none of them can be verified to actually exist. So even the ones that are plausible in theory may not exist. So I would still be perfectly sound in my reasoning to be agnostic with respect to the actual existence any of them.

After all, Secular Naturalism could be true. I'm agnostic on that question as well. :D

I don't claim to know the true nature of reality. And the reason I don't claim to know is because I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer that questions (i.e. I'm agnostic to those specific questions).

I'm not agnostic toward the Bible though because the Bible proves its own fallacy. Therefore I do have sufficient knowledge to know that the Bible is false in its claims.
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

Aetixintro wrote: Second, so my aim is not to place tests on unwilling subjects, but to say something about the seriousness to which one should seek out possible-God. Of all ways to possible-God, I merely point out that these ways are the ways in which one immerse oneself. And then question God's existence in having tried to reach the place of faith, firm belief.
So are you trying to say that a person can't claim to be legitimately without knowledge of any possible God until they have studied, understood, and rejected every possible religion or theological myth about all possible Gods?

I've already found religions that have Gods that I cannot disprove. Buddhism comes to mind. But just because I can't prove it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it does exist.

Therefore even after having studied the religion and found no concrete way to disprove it, I can STILL come away being agnostic about it. In other words, I STILL don't have enough knowledge to KNOW that that the religion is true.
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Post #17

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]

Sounds all fine to me. Have it your way, Divine Insight! However, this is about my belief the way I see it and by belief alone, I'm as confident as it's possible to be about God, all (credible, not Satanism etc.) religions respected, merely having the one I've grown up with.

We are good? :)
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Post #18

Post by Divine Insight »

Aetixintro wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]

Sounds all fine to me. Have it your way, Divine Insight! However, this is about my belief the way I see it and by belief alone, I'm as confident as it's possible to be about God, all (credible, not Satanism etc.) religions respected, merely having the one I've grown up with.

We are good? :)
That's all fine and dandy. But keep in mind. You are the one who started a thread in "Questions for a Group" and then started asking Agnostics if they are ready for an update.

What does that have to do with you being confident in your beliefs? :-k
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Re: Agnostics ready for the update? Agnostics' Slipstream ou

Post #19

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 16 by Divine Insight]

It's about finding one religion with which one can place one's faith/belief.

If one finds religious peace (religion of belief) with the first and best one "likes" then all is well and good.

Like yourself, you are Hebrew-Agnostic/Judaism-Agnostic and I guess you live the life of religious Hebrews one strain or other. Shouldn't it be sufficient? Do you fear you do not enter Hebrew-Heaven? What is your faith? It holds the test of time, time of death? :)
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Post #20

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 18 by Divine Insight]

True, at least partly. It's just one example for the way to the place. I guess the missionary in me got the best of me.

Cheers! :)
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

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