Synagogue tradition

[Elijah John]

In Bible times there seems to have been a population of "God-Fearers" who worshiped YHVH the God of Israel and attended synagogue services but did not formally convert to Judaism.

And in those days, they were welcome to do so.

Just wondering, does that tradition still hold true today? Are modern "God Fearers" still welcome to worship YHVH in synagogue along side with Jews who regularly attend?

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Sure. We don't check to see if you're circumcised at the door...

Seriously, I don't know of a shul (synagogue) where EVERYONE isn't welcome -- but then I don't hang out in Orthodox circles. Since I worshiped at some Orthodox shuls before I converted, though, I feel sure that they are welcoming, too. Sort of. Depending on the synagogue, you may not have a clue what's going on. Orthodox services are generally conducted entirely in Hebrew (ours, in my Conservative shul, are mostly in Hebrew, but we provide transliterations with translations so non-Hebrew-readers can follow and participate if they choose). The Orthodox services I've seen sometimes look like everyone is kind of doing his own thing and ignoring what's going on at the bimah (Jewish equivalent of the chancel, or altar).

In our synagogue, we have guests literally every week, and all are welcome, whatever their reason for coming. Often kids from the nearby college attend services to satisfy a requirement for their religion classes, and we happily invite them (and other visitors) to stay after the service while the rabbi, or one of our lay members (like me) shows them the Torah scrolls and answers any questions they may have.

There are also places of worship, and formal organizations, for what you call "God-fearers"; the modern term is Noachites, which refers to the seven laws of Noah. Noachites are people who worship the God of Israel, but are not Jewish. They seem to have been around since Abraham's day.

Edited to add: It might be useful to know that we don't use the term "YHVH," however you choose to pronounce it. "The Lord" will do fine, or "God," or in Orthodox circles, "HaShem" (literally, "The Name.") A more formal way to mention God is HaKadosh Baruch Hu, but that would be thought odd in conversation. It means "The Holy One, Blessed be He."

[postroad]

When reading Paul's letters I sometimes suspected that he was trying to form congregations of Noachites that he routinely fleeced in order to support the Jerusalem congregation.

His words to the Gentile believers do not match up to his actions in submitting to the Apostles request that he prove his allegiance to the Law,

Also the instructions given to the Gentile believer reflect Noachite tradition.

But of course Paul does condemn the concept that his Gentile believers were second class Jews. Sooo?

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 3 by postroad]

Like most Jews, I don't bother to think about Paul very much. Why would I? The lives and beliefs and practices of first-century Christians matter even less to me than those of first-century Jews, and THOSE are only of historical interest. I am much more interested in the Jews I live among and worship next to.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 4 by cnorman18]

Your point is absolutely correct in relation to this thread. I was just ruminating again.

But I stand on the principle that the beliefs in the past have relevance in discussions about the beliefs of the past?

And of course this is not one of those threads so my post and this one are not useful.

So I apologise....but my posts about............. uh never mind.

[cnorman18]

Sorry if I was rude; let me answer a bit more directly.

When reading Paul's letters I sometimes suspected that he was trying to form congregations of Noachites that he routinely fleeced in order to support the Jerusalem congregation.

I doubt if they thought or spoke in those terms then -- and I think Paul's commitment, very early on, was to former Gentiles who became Christians. He didn't have much to do with the Jerusalem congregation -- that appears to have been James's bailiwick, and he and Paul didn't get along well.

His words to the Gentile believers do not match up to his actions in submitting to the Apostles request that he prove his allegiance to the Law,

Oh, I think the Jerusalem conference recorded in Acts explains all that; Gentiles did not need to be circumcised, but they were to avoid eating blood, etc. Paul's own observance was suspect (another reason to doubt if he was ever Jewish at all), but that was never Paul's focus, nor was it or is it particularly germane to what was going on at the time. Paul seems to have adopted the level of observance expected of Gentile converts, in solidarity with them, perhaps.

Also the instructions given to the Gentile believer reflect Noachite tradition.

More or less, yes; though that concept has been refined since.

But of course Paul does condemn the concept that his Gentile believers were second class Jews. Sooo?

Second-class Christians, to be sure; but they were never Jews at all, so that's moot.

One more note -- if you go into any synagogue, anywhere, and begin talking about "Messiah" or "Messianic" anything -- count on it: the antennae will go up and everyone you speak to will be on their guard. Most of the Jews I know have been approached by "Messianics," i.e., faux-Jewish Christian "missionaries," and sometimes rather rudely. We no longer have much patience for that sort of thing, and you will feel UNwelcome in very short order.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Sure. We don't check to see if you're circumcised at the door...

Seriously, I don't know of a shul (synagogue) where EVERYONE isn't welcome -- but then I don't hang out in Orthodox circles. Since I worshiped at some Orthodox shuls before I converted, though, I feel sure that they are welcoming, too. Sort of. Depending on the synagogue, you may not have a clue what's going on. Orthodox services are generally conducted entirely in Hebrew (ours, in my Conservative shul, are mostly in Hebrew, but we provide transliterations with translations so non-Hebrew-readers can follow and participate if they choose). The Orthodox services I've seen sometimes look like everyone is kind of doing his own thing and ignoring what's going on at the bimah (Jewish equivalent of the chancel, or altar).

In our synagogue, we have guests literally every week, and all are welcome, whatever their reason for coming. Often kids from the nearby college attend services to satisfy a requirement for their religion classes, and we happily invite them (and other visitors) to stay after the service while the rabbi, or one of our lay members (like me) shows them the Torah scrolls and answers any questions they may have.

There are also places of worship, and formal organizations, for what you call "God-fearers"; the modern term is Noachites, which refers to the seven laws of Noah. Noachites are people who worship the God of Israel, but are not Jewish. They seem to have been around since Abraham's day.

Edited to add: It might be useful to know that we don't use the term "YHVH," however you choose to pronounce it. "The Lord" will do fine, or "God," or in Orthodox circles, "HaShem" (literally, "The Name.") A more formal way to mention God is HaKadosh Baruch Hu, but that would be thought odd in conversation. It means "The Holy One, Blessed be He."

Thank you Charles, appreciate the answer.

Good to know about welcoming attitude of most Jewish congregations. I will probably try to find a Conservative or a Reform synagogue in my area to visit.

I think I would probably opt for a Noahide or Noachite affiliation, as they seem more in line with my way of thinking then Trinitarian or conventional Christians do.
(too bad there are not too many Ebionite or Nazarite groups around anymore.)

I wonder what the Noachites think about Jesus as a teacher? (not Son of God)

But a couple of reasons I would not be likely to convert to full Judaism at this point:

a) The name of God, YHVH is too important to me for and is central to my own personal Spirituality, and I profoundly disagree with the Jewish prohibition of pronouncing HaShem. (Do the Noachites also forbid pronounciation of The Name?)

Out of respect though, I would not pronounce YHVH aloud when I visit, and even here in this written forum, I most often use the consonants of the Tetragrammaton instead of spelling The Name with vowels included.

But I think I could (and may still) make a pretty good case here why there is nothing wrong with pronouncing The Name with all reverence and not frivolously, using examples of Bible usage etc. But the synagogue is not the place for that, and is not a "debating forum".

But I do understand the Jewish concept of "building a fence around the Torah" extending the boundries of the law (as some say Jesus did in the Sermon on the Mount with regard to some topics ) to ensure it's observance. If one never says the Name of God, one will never misuse it, so thing thinking goes?

But I have read even some Jewish writers who have written out the Name of God when expressing satisfaction of how the the God of Israel is now being worshiped thoughout the Nations via Christianity and to some extent Islam.

But yes, out of respect for Jewish traditon, I would probably use the words "God", Adonai or HaShem when I visit the synagogue. I tend to avoid the term "Lord" in conversation because in western culture, it is all too often conflated with Jesus. (I have seen illustrations of Psalm 23, for example, with a picture of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, when David meant YHVH is the Good Shepherd.

Also, reason b)

I have of course read of your conversion process and it is very admirable, but frankly, it sounds to long and difficult for someone like me. I don't have that kind of discipline!

[Elijah John]

Also, I just want to point out that it seems that the Noahide way is a way of "salvation" (being right with God) in the context of Judaism for non-Jews. No Christ required.

And I do understand that from a Jewish point of view, it is not necessary to convert to Judaism to be "saved" or "have a portion in the world to come".

I just reviewed the "7 laws of Noah" and it seems to me that they are all covered by the Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule and/or the Two Great commandments of loving God and loving neighbor.

If one lives by this more well- known code of ethics, it seems to me that one would be fulfilling the laws of Noah. Except for the "establishing courts of justice" part. That one seems to be the obligation of a just society as opposed to an individual's part.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

Well, all of the laws of Noah are included somewhere in the 613 laws which Jews are to obey. Notice what is left OUT of the Noachide laws that is included in the Ten -- Sabbath observance, honoring parents, worshiping one God. Also notice that eating the flesh of a living animal isn't included in the Ten, either.

Most importantly; "salvation" is not a concern of either Jews or Noachites. Period. It just isn't. The "afterlife," if any, is God's business. One trusts God and does the best one can to act morally for morality's own sake. Acting morally because one fears the stick and desires the carrot -- Hell and Heaven, respectively -- is not morality, but self-centered egoism. One does good because it is GOOD to do good, and leaves judgment to God. If you don't steal merely because you don't want to be punished, and otherwise would take all you can get -- how moral is that?

Seems to me that you keep trying to find a way to mix Christianity and Judaism. They do have things in common -- but they remain separate and distinct religions, with separate and distinct priorities and central concerns. Can't sew a patch of new material on an old garment, new wine in old bottles, all that.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

Well, all of the laws of Noah are included somewhere in the 613 laws which Jews are to obey. Notice what is left OUT of the Noachide laws that is included in the Ten -- Sabbath observance, honoring parents, worshiping one God. Also notice that eating the flesh of a living animal isn't included in the Ten, either.

Most importantly; "salvation" is not a concern of either Jews or Noachites. Period. It just isn't. The "afterlife," if any, is God's business. One trusts God and does the best one can to act morally for morality's own sake. Acting morally because one fears the stick and desires the carrot -- Hell and Heaven, respectively -- is not morality, but self-centered egoism. One does good because it is GOOD to do good, and leaves judgment to God. If you don't steal merely because you don't want to be punished, and otherwise would take all you can get -- how moral is that?

Seems to me that you keep trying to find a way to mix Christianity and Judaism. They do have things in common -- but they remain separate and distinct religions, with separate and distinct priorities and central concerns. Can't sew a patch of new material on an old garment, new wine in old bottles, all that.

It seems to me that the Noahide prohitition against idolatry and the 2nd of the Ten Commandments are similar. The Sabbath seems for Jews only in the Ten, (not in the Noahide 7) but has since been adopted somewhat by Christian culture and moved to Sunday. I have been taught Sunday is the Christian Sabbath since I was a child. But as I may have mentioned in another thread the "tearing the limbs from a live animal" could be seen to have been covered broadly in the "thou shalt not kill" commandment. But otherwise it seems kind of arbitrary, as it does not seem to be a big problem today. It seems to me a prohibition against cruelty to animals would have been more broadly applicable.

Your clarification of the relative unimportance of "salvation" to Jews and Noahides is noted. I know that the term is of more importance to Christians and Muslims. But the "share in the world to come" phrase is something I learned from Jewish writers, but I get your point that it is something Jews and Noahides do not obsess about.

Regarding why I keep trying to blend Judaism with Christianity? I do that because I believe Jesus did that,or I should say that Jesus was a Jew and certainly not a "Christian". I believe he taught a type of first century reform Judaism or liberal Pharasaic version of Judaism. And the primitive Christians I believe did the same. The Ebionites, the Nazarites and the Didache to a certain degree seem to teach that. I do not want to abandon my prophet Jesus to the Trinitarian corruptors and the Pauline mythmakers and give in to their claim on him. Jesus is to me, what Mohammed is to Muslims. For me, Jesus embodies and teaches what is best from Jewish traditon, but in a more accesible form. My challenge is to try to say focused on Jesus the monotheist in my Trinitarian Western culture and to find like minded people. Thelogically liberal Protestants seem to come closest to my beliefs, but not entirely.

And your point that "Messianic Jews" are Christians and not Jews, or are Christians who like a "Jewish flavor and trappings to their practice" is also noted, understood and agreed. I am not one of them. But I do think that the earliest Christians were Jews who believed Jesus to be their Messiah. But I accept the Jewish definition of the term and understand it's relative unimportance to most Jews today, or at least to their expectation of a "Messianic age", instead of an actual Messiah.