Synagogue tradition

[Elijah John]

In Bible times there seems to have been a population of "God-Fearers" who worshiped YHVH the God of Israel and attended synagogue services but did not formally convert to Judaism.

And in those days, they were welcome to do so.

Just wondering, does that tradition still hold true today? Are modern "God Fearers" still welcome to worship YHVH in synagogue along side with Jews who regularly attend?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 9 by cnorman18]

Also I just want to clarify, I do understand that the 613 laws of Judaism certainly cover the 7 of Noahidism, and was not suggesting that a Jew needs to have any special emphasis on the 7 laws of Noah to be "save" (whatever that means) I do understand that Jews are already and eternally in covenant with YHVH. And when I use the term "saved" please don't take that literally, or in any Fundamentalist way. Marcus Borg, an Episcopalian, points out that the Fundamentalist focus of that term to doctrines of Heaven vs Hell, limits it's broader Biblical meanings. Deeper meanings such as deliverance from evil and the promotion of right relationship with God, being healed, psychological wholeness and a whole host of deeper more broadly applicable meanings.

But what I was driving at, is that it seems to me that the widespread (but not universal) acceptance of Christian culture of the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule, certainly covers in spirit the 7 laws of Noah, if not the letter. So in a way, the 7 preached to Christians seems a bit redundant, unless it is to emphasize that belief in Jesus as the "Messiah, Savior, 2nd person of a Trinity, and Son of God" are not necessarry, especially from a Jewish perspective. And the Noahide provision, which sprang out of Judaism, as well.

And as far as I can see, the only (or the major difference) between Jews and Noahides is that the laws are reduced from 613 to 7 for the children of Noah, no Sabbath requriements and there is not a formal conversion process nor circumcision required in Noahidism as there is in Judaism. Unless I am missing something, I don't see a whole lot of difference. The Noahites seem to have adopted Jewish culture, the lunar calendar, and the Holidays, as well. And the complete rejection of the New Testament and the complete acceptance of the Hebrew Bible.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 9 by cnorman18]

Also I just want to clarify, I do understand that the 613 laws of Judaism certainly cover the 7 of Noahidism, and was not suggesting that a Jew needs to have any special emphasis on the 7 laws of Noah to be "save" (whatever that means) I do understand that Jews are already and eternally in covenant with YHVH. And when I use the term "saved" please don't take that literally, or in any Fundamentalist way. Marcus Borg, an Episcopalian, points out that the Fundamentalist focus of that term to doctrines of Heaven vs Hell, limits it's broader Biblical meanings. Deeper meanings such as deliverance from evil and the promotion of right relationship with God, being healed, psychological wholeness and a whole host of deeper more broadly applicable meanings.

Point taken -- and I like that. I've rarely heard the term used in that way, though, and certainly not around here; so perhaps my jumping to a conclusion was justified.

But what I was driving at, is that it seems to me that the widespread (but not universal) acceptance of Christian culture of the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule, certainly covers in spirit the 7 laws of Noah, if not the letter. So in a way, the 7 preached to Christians seems a bit redundant, unless it is to emphasize that belief in Jesus as the "Messiah, Savior, 2nd person of a Trinity, and Son of God" are not necessarry, especially from a Jewish perspective. And the Noahide provision, which sprang out of Judaism, as well.

Well, we don't "preach" to anybody at all, but okay.

And as far as I can see, the only (or the major difference) between Jews and Noahides is that the laws are reduced from 613 to 7 for the children of Noah, no Sabbath requriements and there is not a formal conversion process nor circumcision required in Noahidism as there is in Judaism. Unless I am missing something, I don't see a whole lot of difference. The Noahites seem to have adopted Jewish culture, the lunar calendar, and the Holidays, as well. And the complete rejection of the New Testament and the complete acceptance of the Hebrew Bible.

Okay, but that's all from an individual perspective. From where I sit, the MAJOR difference between the Noachite and the Jew is commitment to the Jewish people and community. That is what is emphasized in conversion. As I've always said, nobody much cares about the details of your beliefs, as long as they're within the very broad spectrum that is acceptable to modern Jews; and nobody much cares about your level of observance or practice, either. "Do you stand with the Jewish people?" is the salient question when becoming a Jew.

I have no idea to what extent Noachites have "adopted Jewish culture" -- or what that would even mean, given that there are so many varieties of Jewish culture, from Ashkenazic (which is what is usually meant by that phrase) to Sephardic and even Israeli, which today is distinct from both.

Whatever. All this is perfectly OK with me; nobody has to be a Jew, and everybody can believe and do as they like, as long as they're living that basic rule -- "that which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor." Peace to you, and I hope you find a community or way to worship that suits you.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by cnorman18]

Hi Charles, thanks for your time, I know you are a busy man. One of the reasons I posted here is so you or anyone could answer (or not) at your leisure, with no pressure to answer a PM.

Just a few points.

First my usage of the word "preach" may not have been the best choice, "outreach" would have been more appropriate, so I wouldn't take it to heart. I know that no one need become a Jew, or even a Noahide ensure the health of one's soul. But on the other hand, Maimonides seems to refer to the Noahide way of salvation perhaps in order to counter Christian claims to be the "only way" to God?

And when I refer to the Noahide's adoption of Jewish culture, I meant the lunar calendar, the cycle of Jewish holidays, the the complete rejection of the New Testament and the complete acceptance of the Hewbrew Bible. Maybe of the Talmud too? My research was inconclusive on this point, but I m thinking yes, because it is my understanding that the seven laws of Noah are not specifically enumerated in the Torah, (thought they may be implied) but are spelled out in the Talmud.

Thanks for your help and encouragement Charles, and bearing with me as I "think out loud";)

-Peace and blessings to you and yours.

EJ.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 12 by cnorman18]

Hi Charles, thanks for your time, I know you are a busy man. One of the reasons I posted here is so you or anyone could answer (or not) at your leisure, with no pressure to answer a PM.

Understood. Yeah, I guess there is such a thing as "too busy." My wife said yesterday that she's beginning to miss me....

Just a few points.

First my usage of the word "preach" may not have been the best choice, "outreach" would have been more appropriate, so I wouldn't take it to heart. I know that no one need become a Jew, or even a Noahide ensure the health of one's soul. But on the other hand, Maimonides seems to refer to the Noahide way of salvation perhaps in order to counter Christian claims to be the "only way" to God?

And when I refer to the Noahide's adoption of Jewish culture, I meant the lunar calendar, the cycle of Jewish holidays, the the complete rejection of the New Testament and the complete acceptance of the Hewbrew Bible. Maybe of the Talmud too? My research was inconclusive on this point, but I m thinking yes, because it is my understanding that the seven laws of Noah are not specifically enumerated in the Torah, (thought they may be implied) but are spelled out in the Talmud.

Honestly, I know very little about the Noachide point of view and the teachings that they follow. I'm sure there must be websites and literature available. About all I know is that they exist!

Thanks for your help and encouragement Charles, and bearing with me as I "think out loud";)

-Peace and blessings to you and yours.

EJ.

And to you as well.