Atheists

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Taff Lafferty
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Atheists

Post #1

Post by Taff Lafferty »

Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
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Blastcat
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Post #11

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 4 by OnceConvinced]
OnceConvinced wrote: Just how complex is it really?
Good topic for a thread.

Blastcat say: "Complexity is in the eye of the beholder."

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=


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Last edited by Blastcat on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atheists

Post #12

Post by TheBeardedDude »

Taff Lafferty wrote: Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
Being unable to conceive of an answer being correct doesn't mean that god is an acceptable or possible answer be default.

The universe is complex, but that doesn't require it to be created by a conscious entity. For instance, the bedrock geology of any given continent is complex but that doesn't have anything to do with any conscious or sentient processes. It's a result of plate tectonics and igneous intrusion/extrusion and sedimentary deposition over the course of 4.56 billion years.

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Re: Atheists

Post #13

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 12 by TheBeardedDude]



[center]
The question represents a quite False Dichotomy [/center]

Taff Lafferty wrote: Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
TheBeardedDude wrote:
Being unable to conceive of an answer being correct doesn't mean that god is an acceptable or possible answer be default.
I think you are spot on here.
If we don't KNOW the answer, how can we know that there are only two possible options?

Blastcat say : "False Dichotomy"



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KenRU
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Re: Atheists

Post #14

Post by KenRU »

Taff Lafferty wrote: Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
Why is an omnipotent, omniscient and wholly undetectable being who can create something as vast, complex and as incomprehensible as the universe and life a more believable answer than natural law?

If one were to give the question a bit deeper thought, imo, the latter seems far more likely and a much smaller leap of logic.

-all the best
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

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Re: Atheists

Post #15

Post by OnceConvinced »

KenRU wrote:
Taff Lafferty wrote: Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
Why is an omnipotent, omniscient and wholly undetectable being who can create something as vast, complex and as incomprehensible as the universe and life a more believable answer than natural law?

If one were to give the question a bit deeper thought, imo, the latter seems far more likely and a much smaller leap of logic.
Indeed. Why do people, faced with something they can't fathom, something they claim to be way too complex, have to resort to conjuring up something even more complex and unfathomable to explain it?

Why do people have to resort to ignorance when something just seems to be too much to comprehend? Why resort to "goddidit" simply because it seems so incredible to you? This kind of reminds me of the primitive tribes of Africa who marvel... or used to marvel at modern technology and believed the white men to be gods.

The more educated you become, the less complex things appear. When theists use the argument that this universe is way to complex for it to have been a result of abiogenesis and evolution, they show themselves as being like one of those primitive African tribesman.

Conjuring up magical beings as the creators of the world only creates more questions and even more complexity to fathom.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World of Fantasy

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Re: Atheists

Post #16

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 15 by OnceConvinced]
OnceConvinced wrote:

Indeed. Why do people, faced with something they can't fathom, something they claim to be way too complex, have to resort to conjuring up something even more complex and unfathomable to explain it?
Some will say that their prime mover god is the SIMPLEST thing imaginable. It's not MORE complex, it's way less complex.

Magic is so simple, you see.


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Re: Atheists

Post #17

Post by OnceConvinced »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 15 by OnceConvinced]
OnceConvinced wrote:

Indeed. Why do people, faced with something they can't fathom, something they claim to be way too complex, have to resort to conjuring up something even more complex and unfathomable to explain it?
Some will say that their prime mover god is the SIMPLEST thing imaginable. It's not MORE complex, it's way less complex.

Magic is so simple, you see.


:)
As a Christian I was never able to dumb it down that much. To say that all God had to do was say "Abracadabara" and things would be created, was doing nothing to show God as an intelligent creator. From my perspective, God planned it all out in his mind. In fact it took each of his main creations a whole day to design. He had to figure out how it would all work together. Only once the designing was done did he say "Abracadabra" and make it all appear via magic.

Of course I never saw it as "magic", I saw it as "godly power."... which when you really think about it is exactly the same thing.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World of Fantasy

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Re: Atheists

Post #18

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 17 by OnceConvinced]
OnceConvinced wrote:
As a Christian I was never able to dumb it down that much. To say that all God had to do was say "Abracadabara" and things would be created, was doing nothing to show God as an intelligent creator.

Yep, "In the beginning was the word"....


OnceConvinced wrote:
From my perspective, God planned it all out in his mind. In fact it took each of his main creations a whole day to design. He had to figure out how it would all work together. Only once the designing was done did he say "Abracadabra" and make it all appear via magic.
Ok, that makes sense. God is said to have a plan.

Can't have a plan AFTER something is built, plans are usually made BEFORE.. then the magic can happen ( god magic is called "miracle", but it's still just magic )

OnceConvinced wrote:
Of course I never saw it as "magic", I saw it as "godly power."... which when you really think about it is exactly the same thing.
God's magic, God's power, God's will, God's word, God's miracle are all pretty much the same thing.

God might as well be a very powerful wizard, by another name.. Just labels.
Mean the exact same things.


Gandalf the White or whatever....


:)

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Re: Atheists

Post #19

Post by KenRU »

OnceConvinced wrote:
KenRU wrote:
Taff Lafferty wrote: Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
Why is an omnipotent, omniscient and wholly undetectable being who can create something as vast, complex and as incomprehensible as the universe and life a more believable answer than natural law?

If one were to give the question a bit deeper thought, imo, the latter seems far more likely and a much smaller leap of logic.
Indeed. Why do people, faced with something they can't fathom, something they claim to be way too complex, have to resort to conjuring up something even more complex and unfathomable to explain it?

Why do people have to resort to ignorance when something just seems to be too much to comprehend? Why resort to "goddidit" simply because it seems so incredible to you? This kind of reminds me of the primitive tribes of Africa who marvel... or used to marvel at modern technology and believed the white men to be gods.

The more educated you become, the less complex things appear. When theists use the argument that this universe is way to complex for it to have been a result of abiogenesis and evolution, they show themselves as being like one of those primitive African tribesman.

Conjuring up magical beings as the creators of the world only creates more questions and even more complexity to fathom.
In Hollywood and the movies, it is called a McGuffin/MacGuffin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

God is a simple plot device - something to help one overcome whatever obstacle is in the way.

-all the best
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

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Re: Atheists

Post #20

Post by nobspeople »

Taff Lafferty wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:12 am Surely the universe is too complex to "just exist," and must have been created by a God who "just exists."?
How dare you call me Shirley :)
It's always amazed me that people think they can logically and rightly claim EVERYTHING that exists (even the things we don't know about) was created by one super magical man/thing that (seemingly) love us more than anything else.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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