Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Elijah John
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Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

I've been watching Leah Remini's expose on Scientology, and their authoritarian and repressive tactics. It is a "crime" in Scientology to even question their church, (at least publicly) it's doctrines, practices or leaders. Those who do are labeled "suppressive persons".

Likewise, can a Jehovah's Witness get in trouble with their organization if they do the same? That is, if they even question the beliefs and practices of the Watch Tower Society?

For instance, if a JW debating here on this site were to concede a point that their debating opponent makes against the WTS on this debating forum, (it's theology or practice) would there be any punishment, "correction" or sanction from their elders?

If say, a JW were to admit, "yeah, there is no Biblical prohibition against the celebration of birthdays, and I can't see why the WTS prohibits such observances", would that debater get in trouble for publicly questioning a JW practice?

On a similar note, do Jehovah's Witnesses shun those who have left? Say, if a son leaves and the father stays, is that father supposed to cease communication with that "wayward" son, if the son is determined never to come back into the fold?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

In theory yes, someone could be disfellowshipped, yes for systematically preaching non-witness doctrine from door to door saying they are one of Jehovah's Witnesses (for example sayin they are one of Jehovah's Witnesses and that God's name is Molech, not just once - because they would then just be told "Actually its not Molech it's Jehovah" but after repeatedly doing this).
Elijah John wrote: For instance, if a JW debating here on this site were to concede a point that their debating opponent makes against the WTS on this debating forum, (it's theology or practice) would there be any punishment, "correction" or sanction from their elders?
lol.. no. Disfellowshipping is for serious sins, think child abuse, rape, wife beating, abuse of alcohol, fornication and other sorts of sexual immorality. Internet activity? Not so much...lol. Anyway how would anyone know?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
On a similar note, do Jehovah's Witnesses shun those who have left? Say, if a son leaves and the father stays, is that father supposed to cease communication with that "wayward" son, if the son is determined never to come back into the fold?
One is not disfellowshipped for leaving our religion, if anyone wants to stop going to our meetings they can just stop getting up on Sunday morning, nothing will change in terms of the father's responsibilities to his minor son.


If the son is a major and a baptised Witnesses, is over 18 he can simply say he doesn't want to go to any more meetings and that is that. If he starts taking drugs, bringing prostitutes into his father's home and beating on his sibblings he will probably be disfellowshiped and asked to leave the family home.

If he is disfellowshipped the Father will cut off all contact non-essential contact. This doesn't apply to marriage mates, elderly dependent parents or minor children.

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #4

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

That is unless a baptized person writes the branch requesting to no longer be recognized as a Jehovah's Witness or wants to join another religion. Though they have not done any of the other serious sins noted in this thread to request such a thing could be the most serious of all. Denial of Jehovah and Jesus is the worst thing a person can do after being baptized. To promise in prayer that they dedicate their life to Jehovah and break that promise to serve another religion, is very serious. 1 John 2:22-23

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]

True. And internet activity could lead to a disfellowshipping if they used the internet to publish apostate material. The way I see it, bottom line is if someone doesn't want to be a Witness they shouldn't be one, but pretending to be one while opposing the organization and harming the brothers spiritually (or otherwise) should get one disfellowshipped.

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #6

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

In theory yes, someone could be disfellowshipped, yes for systematically preaching non-witness doctrine from door to door saying they are one of Jehovah's Witnesses (for example sayin they are one of Jehovah's Witnesses and that God's name is Molech, not just once - because they would then just be told "Actually its not Molech it's Jehovah" but after repeatedly doing this).
Elijah John wrote: For instance, if a JW debating here on this site were to concede a point that their debating opponent makes against the WTS on this debating forum, (it's theology or practice) would there be any punishment, "correction" or sanction from their elders?
lol.. no. Disfellowshipping is for serious sins, think child abuse, rape, wife beating, abuse of alcohol, fornication and other sorts of sexual immorality. Internet activity? Not so much...lol. Anyway how would anyone know?
List of some things the WTS considers serious sins (I know its a wiki link, but the references are provided):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... us_sins%22


"Apostasy" covers a lot of territory, and includes openly disagreeing with jw teachings. (though let us be clear that this is apostasy against the religion and its teachings; and does not mean that a person is committing apostasy from Christ or God. It is the same as the RCC branding people heretics - not for going against the teachings of Christ and God, but for going against the teachings of the RCC).

"Brazen conduct" covers a lot of territory as well, but includes openly criticizing a disfellowshipping decision. That would obviously be from a person who was not df'd, criticizing the decision to df someone else.

The list on wiki is not comprehensive (there could be other things), but I could not find an official jw.org list).



I think the thing with internet activity is as JW said - who would know? Unless another jw knew and reported said activity?



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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #7

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

That is unless a baptized person writes the branch requesting to no longer be recognized as a Jehovah's Witness or wants to join another religion. Though they have not done any of the other serious sins noted in this thread to request such a thing could be the most serious of all. Denial of Jehovah and Jesus is the worst thing a person can do after being baptized. To promise in prayer that they dedicate their life to Jehovah and break that promise to serve another religion, is very serious. 1 John 2:22-23

Leaving a religion does not mean that one is leaving God or His Son. Some leave a religion (or all religions) in order TO serve God and His Son. They commit no sins (no more than anyone else), and they keep doing as Christ commanded out of love for Him.




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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: Likewise, can a Jehovah's Witness get in trouble with their organization if they do the same? That is, if they even question the beliefs and practices of the Watch Tower Society?
This is why there is no point in even talking a JW. They have no choice in what they are permitted to believe. They don't worship the Bible, they worship the Watchtower.

You don't need to ask a JW what they "believe". All you need to do is pick up a copy of the Watchtower and you can tell the JW precisely what they must believe if they want to continue to claim to be a JW.
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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #9

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

There is always a point in talking to a JW (or anyone else for that matter). Especially if they are willing to talk to you as well. You never know what seed might be planted. And love always hopes.


The woman who did the jw bible study with me many years ago, she said once that she would want someone to tell her if she was believing something false about God (she would have said Jehovah).


You also never know who else might be listening.


Now, if I'm a JW and someone is telling me that there is no God and that's what is waiting for me if I leave that organization, then I'm probably staying in, even if I do see things that contradict with Christ. Because I'm not going there, I'm not leaving God.

Unfortunately, some religions like this one teach their members that leaving them IS leaving God. That is a false teaching.

Christ did not call us to a religion. He called (and calls) us to Himself.

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.�



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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #10

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: There is always a point in talking to a JW (or anyone else for that matter). Especially if they are willing to talk to you as well. You never know what seed might be planted. And love always hopes.
I was thinking more in terms of on a debate forum. From what I've seen on this forum is that Jehovah's Witnesses are more interested in preaching the Watchtower than debating.

It is true that the JW's that come knocking at your door are often quite different. They too are on a mission to preach the Gospel of the Watchtower, but I've found that the JW's that come to my door are far more often still searching for something more meaningful.

A while back I had a JW come to my house on a beautiful warm summer day when I was doing some woodworking in the front yard. I was working with hand tools so I was able to keep working while we talked. I don't turn JW's away unless I'm busy. In fact, sometimes they can be interesting to talk with.

In this case, the fellow was giving me his normally trained speech and I asked him why he believed these things. He gave the standard answer that supposedly this is what the Bible says. And then I explained what I believed about the same issues. He actually became quite interested. :D

It ended up that he was asking me more questions in an genuinely sincere effort to learn more about what I believed. He eventually asked me where I got these ideas. I told him that many of them are the same as how many of the Eastern Mystics believe. He didn't know about Eastern mystical religions and became curious. So I told him the basics. Before he left he was asking me where he could find more books on these religion, and he said that he actually liked the ideas.

So I think this was a case of a person who was searching for something and got caught up in the JW program, but ultimately found it lacking himself, and was obviously still interested in learning more about other possibilities.

It wasn't my intent to sell him on Eastern Mysticism. :D

He came to me wanting to talk about religious and spiritual ideas, I didn't go to his house. So it wasn't my idea to sell him on Eastern Mysticism. I would have been glad to have had a conversation about woodworking, or old cars, or whatever.

Clearly he was the one who was searching for something spiritual. I'm totally happy and content with my worldview. Agnosticism for me is the ultimate truth. And I'm totally happy confessing to everyone, including myself, and any God's the might exist that I have no clue what's going on.

Only Christianity and Islam would have their God condemn me for that. :roll:

And that alone should raise red flags concerning both of those religions for everyone.

Why people are so quick to embrace religions that claim to have a God who is so hateful that he'll condemn people for confessing that they have no clue whether or not a God exists is beyond me.
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