Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Elijah John
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Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

I've been watching Leah Remini's expose on Scientology, and their authoritarian and repressive tactics. It is a "crime" in Scientology to even question their church, (at least publicly) it's doctrines, practices or leaders. Those who do are labeled "suppressive persons".

Likewise, can a Jehovah's Witness get in trouble with their organization if they do the same? That is, if they even question the beliefs and practices of the Watch Tower Society?

For instance, if a JW debating here on this site were to concede a point that their debating opponent makes against the WTS on this debating forum, (it's theology or practice) would there be any punishment, "correction" or sanction from their elders?

If say, a JW were to admit, "yeah, there is no Biblical prohibition against the celebration of birthdays, and I can't see why the WTS prohibits such observances", would that debater get in trouble for publicly questioning a JW practice?

On a similar note, do Jehovah's Witnesses shun those who have left? Say, if a son leaves and the father stays, is that father supposed to cease communication with that "wayward" son, if the son is determined never to come back into the fold?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #21

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
If a person is alone they are not part of 'the flock of God' (1 PET. 5:2.)
If a person is in Christ, that person is never alone. But one must come to Christ (as He has called them to do) and follow Him. Let HIM guide us where He wants us to be.
But you are alone if you are teaching your own thing, that is not a flock. A flock is a more than 2.
I do not teach 'my own thing'. I am not the Teacher. Christ is the Teacher. I am merely a witness and a servant of Him.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Yet I know of people that are 'spiritual but not religious' but you don't teach what they do. You are not unified with them. Now who is teaching was Christ taught? You or them? Who is violating the Bibles command to “be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.� (1 Corinthians 1:10)

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tam
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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #22

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
But the congregation (or church) is made OF individuals.
So you are in a congregation then?

Anyone who is in the Body of Christ is in the Church, and has Christ as their head. Because that is what the church is - the Body of Christ, made of people.
So that I am clear you are saying 'yes', you're in a congregation.
I am a member of the Body of Christ - which is the church (as defined above) - yes.


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #23

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
If a person is alone they are not part of 'the flock of God' (1 PET. 5:2.)
If a person is in Christ, that person is never alone. But one must come to Christ (as He has called them to do) and follow Him. Let HIM guide us where He wants us to be.
But you are alone if you are teaching your own thing, that is not a flock. A flock is a more than 2.
I do not teach 'my own thing'. I am not the Teacher. Christ is the Teacher. I am merely a witness and a servant of Him.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Yet I know of people that are 'spiritual but not religious' but you don't teach what they do. You are not unified with them. Now who is teaching was Christ taught? You or them? Who is violating the Bibles command to “be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.� (1 Corinthians 1:10)
There are many sects that are "Christian", but you don't teach what they do. You are not unified with them. Now who is teaching what Christ taught? You or them? Who is violating the Bible's command to "be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."





Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #24

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
But the congregation (or church) is made OF individuals.
So you are in a congregation then?

Anyone who is in the Body of Christ is in the Church, and has Christ as their head. Because that is what the church is - the Body of Christ, made of people.
So that I am clear you are saying 'yes', you're in a congregation.
I am a member of the Body of Christ - which is the church (as defined above) - yes.


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Tell me, has the holy spirit appointed overseers who have been purchased with the blood of Christ to shepherd your congregation?

(Acts 20:28 - Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.)

Do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #25

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
There are many sects that are "Christian", but you don't teach what they do. You are not unified with them. Now who is teaching what Christ taught? You or them? Who is violating the Bible's command to "be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
I asked you first. I'd like to know you answer and then I will happily share mine. Will you deflect again?

Again, why should I trust what you say over the other guy who is just like you?

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #26

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
There are many sects that are "Christian", but you don't teach what they do. You are not unified with them. Now who is teaching what Christ taught? You or them? Who is violating the Bible's command to "be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
I asked you first. I'd like to know you answer and then I will happily share mine. Will you deflect again?
It was not a deflection. It was a pointed response to what you seem to see as a problem associated solely with individual people. That same problem would exist with sects and groups. If you feel you can overcome that problem with regard to a group, why not with regard to an individual?


As for the answer to your question, for me, it is quite simple. I would listen to Christ. I would test what others are claiming or teaching against the light that is Christ. If something is in conflict with what He taught (in word and deed), how could it then be true?

Can truth be in conflict with truth?


Again, why should I trust what you say over the other guy who is just like you?
I think you might be missing the point. It is not ME you are supposed to be trusting; it is not to ME you are supposed to be coming; it is not ME you are supposed to be following. (or the other guy either)

We are supposed to be coming to CHRIST. Listening to HIM. Coming to HIM.



But if you want to know if something someone has shared is true or from Him (or not), then hold it up against Him to see if it is in conflict (or unity) with Him and His word. If it is in conflict with Christ, how can it be true? In my understanding, love would then share with that person what IS true and from Christ. Might just be a matter of the other person having misunderstood something.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #27

Post by Divine Insight »

2timothy316 wrote: That means there is only one teaching. The right teaching is either going off on your own or being part of a group of people that believe the same thing. It can't be both ways. People that go off by themselves are not teaching the same thing.
This makes no sense coming from a Jehovah's Witness.

Protestantism had already rebelled against the "Body of Christ" when they rejected the Catholic Church.

Jehovah's Witnesses are an extremely late protestant denomination that had not only rejected the Catholic Church as the "Body of Christ", but has also rejected a ton of Protestant demoninations as well.

Jehovah's Witnesses represent something like a mere 2% of Christendom. That's hardly going along with the group. They don't teach the same things as the bulk of Christian theology, in fact, the bulk of Christian theologians see the Jehovah's Witnesses as being the outlier rebels.

Jehovah's Witnesses simply aren't in a position to be doing any finger-pointing because this would be the 2% pointing fingers at the 98% proclaiming the 98% to be the ones who aren't following the clan.

Clearly that's not going to work.

JW's aren't in a position to be making any claims of superior knowledge of Christ or Christian doctrine. They are an extreme minority. They are the outliers.

Actually the Catholic Church is the form of Christendom that can be claiming that non-Catholics are the ones who have abandoned the "Body of Christ". They were the first to come up with this scheme so they basically own the copyright on that idea. They even created the entire Papal system to insure consistency. No other Christian denomination can lay claim to having set up that kind of central theological authority.
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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #28

Post by tam »

Missed this one sorry. Only caught it because DI responded to it.
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote: [
quote="2timothy316"]
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

That is unless a baptized person writes the branch requesting to no longer be recognized as a Jehovah's Witness or wants to join another religion. Though they have not done any of the other serious sins noted in this thread to request such a thing could be the most serious of all. Denial of Jehovah and Jesus is the worst thing a person can do after being baptized. To promise in prayer that they dedicate their life to Jehovah and break that promise to serve another religion, is very serious. 1 John 2:22-23

Leaving a religion does not mean that one is leaving God or His Son.
There is only one cramped road and one narrow gate.
Yes... this does not contradict anything I said.

Christ is the gate; the 'cramped road' would be the road (or path) one walks directly behind Him, eyes on Him, following Him.



“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.� (Matthew 7:13, 14)
Yes.
That means there is only one teaching. The right teaching is either going off on your own or being part of a group of people that believe the same thing.


These verses do not mean either of these things.

The right teaching is to listen to and follow Christ.

Sometimes a person HAS to leave a group in order TO follow Christ.


(And I have to say that I would rather go off on my own than be part of a group of people who believe the same false things. That whole group might be running straight for the edge of the cliff, and if I remain in them, I'm going over too.)
It can't be both ways. People that go off by themselves are not teaching the same thing. I have talked to many of them. They are no unified group of people. Jesus said his followers 'will all be one'. John 17:21. Tam you are not 'one' in what you teach with others like yourself that go off by themselves.
Probably because not everyone who goes off 'on their own' are together to begin with. Just as your group is not unified with or teaching the same things as the RCC or the LDS, or being one with any of these many sects in Christianity (the religion). There could be as many 'lone people' as there are sects/groups the religion. The point is not to seek and find a person or a group to follow. The point is to seek and find Christ (and be found by Him). To come to Him. To follow HIM. He is the One who has the words of eternal life. He is One to whom God said we must listen.




I responded earlier to the question of whether or not I am alone, so I will leave that one alone.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #29

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Missed this one sorry. Only caught it because DI responded to it.
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote: [
quote="2timothy316"]
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

That is unless a baptized person writes the branch requesting to no longer be recognized as a Jehovah's Witness or wants to join another religion. Though they have not done any of the other serious sins noted in this thread to request such a thing could be the most serious of all. Denial of Jehovah and Jesus is the worst thing a person can do after being baptized. To promise in prayer that they dedicate their life to Jehovah and break that promise to serve another religion, is very serious. 1 John 2:22-23

Leaving a religion does not mean that one is leaving God or His Son.
There is only one cramped road and one narrow gate.
Yes... this does not contradict anything I said.

Christ is the gate; the 'cramped road' would be the road (or path) one walks directly behind Him, eyes on Him, following Him.



“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.� (Matthew 7:13, 14)
Yes.
That means there is only one teaching. The right teaching is either going off on your own or being part of a group of people that believe the same thing.


These verses do not mean either of these things.
....and you know this because.... This is not a complete answer.

In the next verse Jesus said to "Be on the watch for the false prophets". Seems to be in harmony with his narrow gate and cramped road theme. Why mention a narrow gate and then in the next sentence talk about false prophets if he not speaking of false teachings?
The right teaching is to listen to and follow Christ.
What books of the Bible don't contain the teachings of Christ?
Sometimes a person HAS to leave a group in order TO follow Christ.
Indeed, one even no longer lives for themselves. (1 Cor 5:15) However, no where is the commandment to stay alone. In fact as you well know the Bible says the exact opposite. The letters to the Romans and Corinthians where not to individuals.
It can't be both ways. People that go off by themselves are not teaching the same thing. I have talked to many of them. They are no unified group of people. Jesus said his followers 'will all be one'. John 17:21. Tam you are not 'one' in what you teach with others like yourself that go off by themselves.
Probably because not everyone who goes off 'on their own' are together to begin with. Just as your group is not unified with or teaching the same things as the RCC or the LDS, or being one with any of these many sects in Christianity (the religion).
That's right JW do not teach the same as RCC, LDS or you. However walk into an RCC church and they don't all teach the same thing. They are not unified in their own 'church'. Don't even get me started on the teachings of LDS or Baptists from one church to the next. They too are not 'of the same mind'. Yet walk into any JW Kingdom hall and all of the teachings are the same. We are 'of one mind'. You and your loner folks do not have that. Nor do you have love among yourselfs. Why? Because you don't even know who each other are. Loners are broken pieces of religions smashed down to the smallest parts. They have forsaken their meeting together. Which we were warned to never do. (Hebrews 10:25) Real Christians “consider one another to incite to love and fine works.�​—Hebrews 10:24. Something loners don't do, how can you, you don't know who the other loners are! The apostles were assembled as a group and what John was taught was not different from what Matthew was taught. Jesus taught them together not separately.

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Re: Debating Jehovah's Witnesses.

Post #30

Post by 2timothy316 »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
But the congregation (or church) is made OF individuals.
So you are in a congregation then?

Anyone who is in the Body of Christ is in the Church, and has Christ as their head. Because that is what the church is - the Body of Christ, made of people.
So that I am clear you are saying 'yes', you're in a congregation.
I am a member of the Body of Christ - which is the church (as defined above) - yes.


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Tell me, has the holy spirit appointed overseers who have been purchased with the blood of Christ to shepherd your congregation?

(Acts 20:28 - Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.)

Do you have men reaching out to be an overseer of your congregation? (1 Timothy 3:1-10)
I never got an answer here. You say you're in a congregation, so do you have men that have been appointed as shepherds over your congregation? What say you?

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