Moral Question for Christians

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rikuoamero
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Moral Question for Christians

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

On a moral level, this is perhaps the one question that stops me from becoming a Christian again.
On this site, I've been told over and over that Jesus Christ died for us, he died for our sins, that he was the sacrifice for our sins, that he paid the penalty etc etc. That to receive salvation/justification, I have to have faith in/believe in this.

So I'd like to ask the Christians on this site this.
Let's imagine you've gone back in time (no need to discuss how for this question) to the day of Jesus's crucifixion.
Would you prevent the crucifixion? Or even what I would call worse...would you actively take part in it yourself? Would you quite literally nail him to the cross yourself?


That is the reason why I cannot be a Christian. When Christianity praises this event as what saves humanity, I am essentially being told to rejoice at the fact that a (according to Christians) innocent human, one who had done no wrong, was arrested on trumped up charges and executed.
I cannot rejoice at someone's death. Most especially if I would not kill the person myself, if given the opportunity. If I am to be glad that a serial killer has been executed for example, I cannot then say I wouldn't be able to turn on the electrical chair.

If a Christian does happen to say that yes, they would nail Jesus to the cross...then congratulations. You have the courage of your convictions.
You are also another example of what I find so despicable about the religion, in that you are willing to actively murder someone whom you think is innocent for a vague "greater good" that can't be easily explained or understood.
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #11

Post by Divine Insight »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Can God create a perfect being?
From what I hear from Christians, "With God all things are possible"

Also, what happens in heaven? Will the humans who go to heaven somehow be reprogrammed to become "Perfect little robots"?

And if they aren't reprogrammed to behave this way, then how did they become 'perfect' on their own?

This overall theological paradigm appears to have some serious problems.
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #12

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: Okay, but may I please state that my understanding is not that one merely believe that Christ died for us... but that one believe in HIM. To believe in the One God sent. Obviously that includes what He did and what He teaches (else how can one say that one truly believes in Him?). Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.
So please explain to me how it is that if someone doesn't believe these things that this equates to them being an immoral person? :-k
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #13

Post by tam »

Peace to you DI,
Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: Okay, but may I please state that my understanding is not that one merely believe that Christ died for us... but that one believe in HIM. To believe in the One God sent. Obviously that includes what He did and what He teaches (else how can one say that one truly believes in Him?). Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.
So please explain to me how it is that if someone doesn't believe these things that this equates to them being an immoral person? :-k


How can I explain something that I have never claimed to begin with?

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #14

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: Peace to you DI,
Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: Okay, but may I please state that my understanding is not that one merely believe that Christ died for us... but that one believe in HIM. To believe in the One God sent. Obviously that includes what He did and what He teaches (else how can one say that one truly believes in Him?). Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.
So please explain to me how it is that if someone doesn't believe these things that this equates to them being an immoral person? :-k
How can I explain something that I have never claimed to begin with?
In that case why would it be important to believe in these outrageous claims? :-k

And keep in mind, that while you may not have claimed these things the authors of the Gospels most certainly have. So are you placing yourself as a greater authority on Jesus than John?

Because John claims that those who don't believe this are condemned already. John 3:18.

So am I to believe you over John? :-k
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #15

Post by tam »

Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: Peace to you DI,
Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: Okay, but may I please state that my understanding is not that one merely believe that Christ died for us... but that one believe in HIM. To believe in the One God sent. Obviously that includes what He did and what He teaches (else how can one say that one truly believes in Him?). Part of that is that He gave His life (died for us); that we have forgiveness of sins in Him, and also that He was raised from the dead and is ALIVE.
So please explain to me how it is that if someone doesn't believe these things that this equates to them being an immoral person? :-k
How can I explain something that I have never claimed to begin with?
In that case why would it be important to believe in these outrageous claims? :-k
Well... because they are true; because believing everything He said is part of exercising faith in Him (as the Messiah, the Son of God) and in His Father.

And keep in mind, that while you may not have claimed these things the authors of the Gospels most certainly have. So are you placing yourself as a greater authority on Jesus than John?
I think you might have to show me where any author of any gospel stated that all who do not believe these things are immoral.
Because John claims that those who don't believe this are condemned already. John 3:18.

You seem to be reading more into this than it means.

Man was ALREADY condemned (everyone was ALREADY subject to death) before Christ came. If one did not put their faith in Him - even rejected Him - then one remained in their sins and subject to death.

(this might have also had additional meaning to one from Israel - because Israel was supposed to be waiting for Him, were supposed to listen to Him when He came. Had they been listening to God - even just to Moses - they would have known Christ when He came to them.)



But this does not mean that everyone who does not believe in Christ is condemned to eternal death (and certainly not to eternal torment... aka... the doctrine of hellfire). There are those who reign as kings and priests with Christ (at least 144 000 from Israel - 12 000 each from 12 tribes; as well as a great crowd that is taken from EVERY tribe, nation, people, and tongue) as His Bride. These are the ones who are both called and chosen.

But there are also the subjects of the Kingdom, such as the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#731804




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #16

Post by tam »

Peace to you Rik,
So I ask you tam...if you had gone back in time, would you nail Jesus to the cross yourself? Would you be able to, be willing to, hammer the nails through his hands/wrists?

I already answered this question Rik; even explained my reasons. Repeating the question or rephrasing the intro leading up to the question is not going to change the answer.
If you're unable/unwilling to do that, then you have no business receiving the benefits of it (assuming for the sake of argument that this forgiveness of sins really does happen).
Thankfully, that is not for you to say.


But this is what I am hearing from you:

Unless you are willing to murder the person who comes to save your life, you have no business being saved. Unless you are willing to murder the person who gave their life for yours, you have no business living?

How does that make sense?

People who sacrifice their lives for others (or who put their lives at risk for others) don't usually ask permission (nor even need to ask permission). They just do this out of love, whether it is "deserved" or not.

So no, I would not try to prevent it.
Tam, do me a favour and expand this sentence. I want you to put down in text, what "it" is.
"It" = "the crucifixion."

You question was,

"Would you prevent the crucifixion?"




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #17

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: I think you might have to show me where any author of any gospel stated that all who do not believe these things are immoral.
So then you have no problem with a God who condemns moral people? :-k
tam wrote: Man was ALREADY condemned (everyone was ALREADY subject to death) before Christ came. If one did not put their faith in Him - even rejected Him - then one remained in their sins and subject to death.
So then Christianity isn't about morality at all. It's about immoral people being granted amnesty for simply believing in these ancient stories. And those who don't believe will be damned.

That's not a very compelling religious mythology at all Tam.

If that's the story, then it's far more compelling to believe that this is nothing more than a cultural myth created with the intent to use fear as a religions/political weapon.

I seriously don't see how you could ever believe that any truly decent "God" would have ever created such a hideous situation for humans.

Keep in mind also, that if every human this God ever created, or allowed to be procreated, is fundamentally immoral (i.e. a sinner), then this Creator God is the most inept creator we could ever imagine.

Having a zero percent success rate at creating decent moral humans is a pretty sad record.

Have you ever considered this religious paradigm from an purely rational evaluation?

The God you describe would necessarily need to be the most inept creator possible with a 100% failure rate in his creation. He doens't even need any competition to be the worst possible creator. A 100% failure rate is the worse that can be accomplished.

Not only this, but those who do end up obtaining undeserved amnesty through Christ to be permitted into his heavenly kingdom would be undeserving failed sinners, who actually deserve to be put to death according to you and this religion.

And then what happens to these people? Are they then magically transformed by this God to become mindlessly obedient robots in heaven? He surely couldn't allow them to keep their natural sinful character. So he's going to need to turn them into reprogrammed robots anyway. He could have done that for all humans from the get go without all the silly games.

He wouldn't need to have them believe in something outrageous just to turn them into obedient robots.

So this religious paradigm simply makes no sense in terms of any actual creator. There would be no reason for it.

It only makes sense in term of a religious/political ploy to try to convince the masses that they need to buy into it lest they will be damned. It's a religious/political scare tactic.

Now it is true, that this is not what it is today. At least not on purpose. Some people do use the religion for political purposes. However, many people are just victims of the inertia this political movement had created over the centuries.

There is no God who will condemn you if you don't believe in Jesus Tam.

You can trust me on that one.

Just ask yourself, "Will whether or not you believe in Jesus affect how you behave?"

If so, and you would behave poorly without this belief, then by all means keep believing and allow this religious/political machine to do its job.

If not, then my point has been made.

If you can't behave without Jesus, then you'll necessarily need to be converted to a mindless obedient robot in heaven.

And if you can behave without Jesus, then I rest my case.

You can actually discover the fallacies of this religion if you simply think about things logically.

It's not that a God cannot exist. It's that this particular religion is extremely illogical and self-contradictory.

No need to become an atheist. But there are far more realistic religions to be had.

That's all I'm saying. O:)
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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #18

Post by tam »

Peace to you DI,
Divine Insight wrote:
tam wrote: I think you might have to show me where any author of any gospel stated that all who do not believe these things are immoral.
So then you have no problem with a God who condemns moral people? :-k
See, comments like this indicate to me that you are debating some caricature, rather than anything I actually said (er, wrote).

For example:
quote="tam"]
Man was ALREADY condemned (everyone was ALREADY subject to death) before Christ came. If one did not put their faith in Him - even rejected Him - then one remained in their sins and subject to death.
So then Christianity isn't about morality at all. It's about immoral people being granted amnesty for simply believing in these ancient stories. And those who don't believe will be damned.

This is pretty much the opposite of what I wrote:
But this does not mean that everyone who does not believe in Christ is condemned to eternal death (and certainly not to eternal torment... aka... the doctrine of hellfire). There are those who reign as kings and priests with Christ (at least 144 000 from Israel - 12 000 each from 12 tribes; as well as a great crowd that is taken from EVERY tribe, nation, people, and tongue) as His Bride. These are the ones who are both called and chosen.

But there are also the subjects of the Kingdom, such as the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#731804


So I really have no comment on the rest of what you wrote, because what you wrote really doesn't respond to or even take into consideration what I wrote.



Peace again to you...

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Post #19

Post by Overcomer »

Hi, rikuoamero!

You aren't alone in finding the cross offensive. Here's what Paul wrote about it to the Corinthians:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.�

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (1 Cor. 1:18-25).


If you're offended by the cross, think how offended God is by your sin. The only way you can end your offense to him is accept that cross. And how offensive is it to Christ that you reject what he did for you? It's like he pulled you out of the Atlantic Ocean where you would surely have drowned, and you're shoving him aside, spitting in his face, telling him he's an idiot for saving you and you don't need him or what he offers you -- your very life.

It's always interesting looking at these things from God's point of view. He's the one you have a problem with, not Christians.

For more, read here:

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a- ... y-offended

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Re: Moral Question for Christians

Post #20

Post by Divine Insight »

tam wrote: So I really have no comment on the rest of what you wrote, because what you wrote really doesn't respond to or even take into consideration what I wrote.
Exactly.

But what I wrote does indeed take into account what is written in the Christian Gospels So you'll have to excuse me if I'm more interested in discussing what Christianity has to say over what Tam has to say.

Why should I care what Tam has to say when she refuses to acknowledge what is stated in the Christian Gospels? I'm not interested in debating what Tam wishes Christianity could have been had she been given the opportunity to write the Gospels.

I too would have written them differently. But that's a whole other story.
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