JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

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JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #1

Post by Miles »

In reading about Jehovah's Witnesses* I found that among a lot of other things oral and anal sex are considered "serious sins."


Several points:

1) I failed to find any scripture that considers oral or anal sex to be a sin, serious or otherwise. ..... (Perhaps I've missed it. Please help)

2)What differentiates a serious sin from an ordinary sin? ..... (Is it kind, degree, or some other factor?---I've looked but came up dry)

3) I always thought that sins were immoral acts considered to be a transgression against divine law. ..... (If JWs have a different definition I'm all ears)

4) As a divine law, the law can only come from god...... (Are JWs empowered establish divine law?)

5) So what gives? Can JWs make up sins as they wish? ..... (If not, what's the story behind oral and anal sex being a sin, a "serious" sin?)


* Wikipedia: "Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline"


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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:57 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:14 amIf this is correct, what is this principle that makes oral and anal sex a sin?
THE PRINCIPLE: Jehovah hates homosexual ACTS which violate the natural order of conduct.

We discern that Jehovah condemns homosexuals for engaging in same sex sexual intercourse and sexual contact; this would involve both anal and oral intercourse, which are both contrary to the obvious natural (design intention) use of these body parts.
I wasn't thinking of homosexuals engaging in oral and anal sex, but heterosexuals. ...

I know. In the Jehovahs Witness faith a PRINCIPLE is universal, meaning it applies to all people, across all time and circumstances. Thus the principal above for us JWs in our religion applies to everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. We view things which our God hates as unclean.


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #12

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:39 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:57 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:14 amIf this is correct, what is this principle that makes oral and anal sex a sin?
THE PRINCIPLE: Jehovah hates homosexual ACTS which violate the natural order of conduct.

We discern that Jehovah condemns homosexuals for engaging in same sex sexual intercourse and sexual contact; this would involve both anal and oral intercourse, which are both contrary to the obvious natural (design intention) use of these body parts.
I wasn't thinking of homosexuals engaging in oral and anal sex, but heterosexuals. ...

I know. In the Jehovahs Witness faith a PRINCIPLE is universal, meaning it applies to all people, across all time and circumstances. Thus the principal above for us JWs in our religion applies to everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. We view things which our God hates as unclean.


JW
In that case, in as much as heterosexuals engage in kissing just as much as homosexuals, and god has never condemned kissing, we can conclude that it's perfectly fine for homosexuals to kiss, as well as caress one another. AND, because god has never condemned cunnilingus as hateful and unclean, that too is allowed. At least JW women are left with some kind of oral sex . . . . . . and good for them. :approve:

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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:44 pm... god has never condemned kissing, we can conclude that it's perfectly fine for homosexuals to kiss,
2 CORINTHIANS 13:12 ESV

Greet one another with a holy kiss.
IS KISSING A SIN?

The bible does not present kisses as unnatural or unclean activity. Indeed kisses were and remain to this day a standard greeting in many oriental (and European) cultures between people regardless of their biological sex or sexual orientation. This is why there was nothing unusual (or sexually charged) when Judas greeted Jesus with a kiss.

Intimate erotic kisses (and caresses *) however are generally considered part of foreplay and usually engaged in a a prelude to sexual activity, so while kisses of themselves would not be considered sinful or unclean, intimate kisses between member of the same sex (or between people of the opposite sex who are not married to each other) would violate several bible principles. It would show those engaging in such activity have little respect for divine standards and , given the strength of sexual attraction, would also likely lead sooner or later to either other unclean acts or some form of sexual immorality.



JW


* NOTE Sexual stimulation of another person's genitals, comes under the category of "sexual activity" and if engaged in by those not biblically married is classified as "fornication" (pornia) which for Jehovah's Witnesses is a serious sin. Cunnilingus, stimulation of the female genitals using the tongue or lips, is ORAL SEX (see post # 7 above)



RELATED POSTS
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viewtopic.php?p=1016791#p1016791

Why do JW consider oral sex, cunnilingus and anal sex as unclean?
viewtopic.php?p=1016856#p1016856

Do Jehovahs Witnesses KISS?
viewtopic.php?p=1016904#p1016904

Did the Mosaic Law prohibit sex outside of marriage?
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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #14

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:37 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:44 pm... god has never condemned kissing, we can conclude that it's perfectly fine for homosexuals to kiss,
2 CORINTHIANS 13:12 ESV

Greet one another with a holy kiss.
IS KISSING A SIN?

Intimate erotic kisses (and caresses *) however are generally considered part of foreplay and usually engaged in a a prelude to sexual activity, so while kisses of themselves would not be considered sinful or unclean, intimate kisses between member of the same sex (or between people of the opposite sex who are not married to each other) would violate several bible principles. It would show those engaging in such activity have little respect for divine standards and , given the strength of sexual attraction, would also likely lead sooner or later to either other unclean acts or some form of sexual immorality.
While "Intimate erotic kisses" can be part of foreplay, they need not be. I recall that as a young, dating teenager I never expected to get to second base much less hit a third-bagger. For me and those I hung with kisses were an end unto themselves, but if in time kissing did progress to second base that was pure good fortune. And the harm? None whatsoever because there was never any expectation or chance of getting to third base.

Now, if you perceive some harm in kisses that don't lead to home base or even third base just what is it? What "several bible principles" are violated?

What also has me curious are the expectations of JWs. Are JW teens not expected to kiss each other, ever? Assuming they're never expected to ever share intimate kisses I hope JW parents aren't so naive as to believe it isn't happening. It's almost a gold plated guarantee that every JW teen who is dating or "seeing someone" is "violating several bible principles." So now what? Just like mom and pop who are more likely than not sometimes engaging in sexual sins that dare not speak their names, Bobby and Betty Lou have been engaging in carnal kisses. This isn't meant to make lite of JW beliefs, but rather to make sure your not losing site of the realities of human nature. Human nature being something JWs say was created by god.


FYI (if you're unaware)

.............. First base = kissing, including open-mouth (or French) kissing

.............. Second base = petting above the waist, including touching, feeling, and fondling the chest, breasts, and nipples

.............. Third base = petting or orally stimulating below the waist, including touching, feeling, and fondling the vagina, clitoris, .............. penis, or testicles

.............. Home base = sexual intercourse
.............. source

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:37 am Cunnilingus, stimulation of the female genitals using the tongue or lips, is ORAL SEX (see post # 7 above)
Yup, that's what it is, but it's never condemned by god or anyone else in the Bible, much less designated a sin.


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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:07 pm While "Intimate erotic kisses" can be part of foreplay, they need not be.
I do believe you asked about the beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses and I have explained them as best I can. That this is our view is not a matter of debate, what I explained is the JWs view and thats a fact. I dont recall asking you what your views are much less about your personal sexual history. There is a subforum where posters can ask about posters individual views (see below). Perhaps someone there will request information about your views or request a personal testimony.
Questions for a Specific User
viewforum.php?f=26

Did you have anything else to ask about the our beliefs?


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:07 pm Are JW teens not expected to kiss each other, ever?
Intimate kisses are usually associated with dating and/or done in private. Jehovahs Witnesses do not generally allow their teens to "date"; dating (courting) is viewed as something only to be done when one is old enough and in a position to marry and is done with a view to marriage.

Jehovahs Witness families socialize together and generally speaking, young people socialize in groups (often with responsible adults present). Pairing off and spending time in private with a member if the opposite sex who is not one's marriage mate, is not usual in our culture no matter what their age. Mature couples that are courting with a view to marriage are encouraged to set reasonable limits on their displays of affection.
While rebellious teens, teens that lead "double lives" and teens that secretly engage in behaviours that would not be approved by their parents... is as old as the hills, this is relatively rare amongst our number due to the emphasises placed on education (including sex education) high morals and open and frank family communication.

No matter how common it is outside of our community, Jehovahs Witness youths know that intimate kisses with a member of the opposite (or same) sex is considered entirely unacceptable within the Jehovahs Witness religion. JW parents do not hesistate to communicate their expectations in this regard to their children. Anyone that has raised a child knows, other than do their best to help their child make wise decisions when it comes to their sexual choices, one can but hope.



JW




FURTHER READING Help for teens
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/teenagers/ask/


RELATED POSTS
Why do JW consider oral sex, cunnilingus and anal sex as unclean?
viewtopic.php?p=1016856#p1016856

Do Jehovahs Witnesses KISS?
viewtopic.php?p=1016904#p1016904
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #17

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:35 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:07 pm While "Intimate erotic kisses" can be part of foreplay, they need not be.
I do believe you asked about the beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses and I have explained them as best I can. That this is our view is not a matter of debate, what I explained is the JWs view and thats a fact. I dont recall asking you what your views are much less about your personal sexual history.
Sorry for bringing up uncomfortable situations I feel contradict JW perceptions of inevitable behavior. I just thought a little perspective might be useful. Evidently not. However, as long as you're still open to questions about JWs and their beliefs, how about answering those I asked in my post?

1) if you perceive some harm in kisses that don't lead to home base or even third base just what is that harm?

2) (Referring to the above question) What "several bible principles" are violated [where such kisses occur]?

3) Are JW teens not expected to kiss each other, ever?

OR---and I mean this without any malice or bitterness whatsoever---is it the case that JWs aren't allowed to answer questions for which there's no written answer in JW publications?


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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #18

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:23 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:07 pm Are JW teens not expected to kiss each other, ever?
Intimate kisses are usually associated with dating and/or done in private. Jehovahs Witnesses do not generally allow their teens to "date"; dating (courting) is viewed as something only to be done when one is old enough and in a position to marry and is done with a view to marriage.

Jehovahs Witness families socialize together and generally speaking, young people socialize in groups (often with responsible adults present). Pairing off and spending time in private with a member if the opposite sex who is not one's marriage mate, is not usual in our culture no matter what their age. Mature couples that are courting with a view to marriage are encouraged to set reasonable limits on their displays of affection.
While rebellious teens, teens that lead "double lives" and teens that secretly engage in behaviours that would not be approved by their parents... is as old as the hills, this is relatively rare amongst our number due to the emphasises placed on education (including sex education) high morals and open and frank family communication.

No matter how common it is outside of our community, Jehovahs Witness youths know that intimate kisses with a member of the opposite (or same) sex is considered entirely unacceptable within the Jehovahs Witness religion. JW parents do not hesistate to communicate their expectations in this regard to their children. Anyone that has raised a child knows, other than do their best to help their child make wise decisions when it comes to their sexual choices, one can but hope.
...................................................................Image Thanks for the eye-opening info. It explains a lot.

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Re: JWs and "Serious Sins" of the Flesh

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:45 pm1) if you perceive some harm in kisses that don't lead to home base or even third base just what is that harm?



WHAT'S THE HARM IN KISSING?

Erotic/intimate Kissing is a natural way for (engaged or married) couples to express affection for each other, indeed the bible book "Song of Solomon" contains poetic descriptions of romanic love expressed through intimate kisses. In the Jehovahs Witness religion erotic kissing without serious committment, while not a "serious sin", is seen as violating several bible principles:
  • Adultery of the heart: While erotic kissing of someone who is not one's mate, may not lead to fornication, by its very nature leads to lust which damages one's relationship with God.
  • If you don't have the means to finish a tower, dont start building: Kissing is surpisingly intimate and can accentuate romantic feelings a youth is not emotionally, or mentally ready for.
  • Your body is a temple: Biblically erotic kissing is a natural prelude to sexual intimacy which is reserved for marriage. It thus has no place being used as entertainment, a pastime (reducing the parts of a woman's body to bases in a game) or for selfish gratification.
  • Expectation postponed makes the heart sick: People are rarely on the same page when it comes to human endeavours. For every boy that is merely using a girl to gratify his desires or pass the time, is a girl that thinks she has found true love. (or visa versa)

Jehovahs Witnesses do not hold to the moral standards common in many western countries and this might seem odd to some, but they believe holding to bible law and principle protects them and their children from harm and gives them the best chances to having happy and stable families.




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Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Have Rules About Dating?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-dating/
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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