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Dgruber,
I would like to "shake hands across the line" – we are not very far apart in viewpoint. I don't know why I had earlier thought you were dogmatic. The error was mine. Sorry.
Even though you speak as a Skeptical Christian and I speak as a Skeptical Non-Theist, many of our points of skepticism overlap and our points of disagreement seem less significant than those of agreement.
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:Are you willing to acknowledge that "gods" other than the one you favor may exist?
I am willing to acknowledge that I might be wrong. I don't believe my faith is any better than any other that I have come across. Who am I to say that I am right and everyone who believes in a different god is wrong? I find it hard to believe that multiple gods exist, but again I won't rule it out.
We say similar things with "I won't rule it out" and "I could be wrong".
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:Do you reject the "immaculate conception", virgin birth, birth star saga, and all that from the gospels of Luke and Matthew?
I do reject immaculate conception. Virgin birth honestly does not seem vital to me. I understand the story in the Bible and why it is taught, but if Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God, would it really be
that important that he was born of a virgin? Again this is not something that I personally get hung up on. The birth star seems unlikely to me unless it really was just an "act of God" because I know of no possibility of a star stopping over a single place.
Here again we say very similar things – probably concluding that the stories are not of great (or vital) importance. I would continue on to say that by insisting that they be part of doctrine and "believed on faith alone", Mainline Christianity places itself in opposition to what we know about the real world – and thereby reduces its credibility to discerning (or skeptical) people.
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:What happens if Jesus isn't worshiped as divine?
I assume you mean what happens if he is seen as a great teacher but still human. Personally I think that would make christianity obsolete. If his bones were found I think that would make christianity obsolete because the NT revolves around his divinity.
I agree that if Jesus is not divine, Christianity is obsolete.
Another aspect of the question might be – if a person refuses to worship Jesus as portrayed in the bible; a "god incarnate" (god in human form), does the person forfeit "salvation" as seems implied in some statements attributed to Jesus?
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:Why would a "god" require "worship"? That seems like a human ego problem projected onto a god (a god made in the image of humans).
Good point, it does seem like an ego problem. I believe that He wants to be worshiped just like many people want to be told they have done well, or that people like them, etc.
It does seem inconsistent that an omnipotent creator of universes would require that humans worship him – under threat of eternal punishment.
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:If that is the case, how can it be said that Jesus must be worshiped as divine?
He was divine in the Bible and outside of that we don't know much about him. If people choose not to worship him as divine, where are they getting that information?
I have no idea how or why anyone would worship a non-divine Jesus.
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:Some Christians regard the resurrection as being "spiritual" rather than literal. Is that an acceptable belief?
I believe if the resurrection did not literally happen then christianity is obsolete.
Agreed
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:That seems like a reasonable position – and one at odds with many of the Christians I have debated over the years. Most "defend to the death" the stories about "miracles" being literally true.
You are right, most do. I just don't know how you are going to have any evidence of them being literally true.
What is questioned about "miracles" is that they are stories about events or feats that supposedly defy nature (or include actions that are contrary to what we now know about the real world we inhabit).
In stories Superman flies through the air and lifts trucks with one hand. In other stories someone walks on water, calms the sea with a command, brings back to life a person who has been dead for days. In some supernatural tales donkeys and snakes converse with humans. There will be no physical evidence thousands of years later (or even immediately afterward) for any or most of these supernatural claims.
However, some supernatural claims should have left clear and unmistakable evidence. The worldwide flood is a prime example. Tellers of the tale had no concept of the immensity of the Earth, its spherical shape, or the configuration its surface. To them forty days of rain might conceivably have flooded every bit of dry land they knew about. However, we who know that the crest of Mt. Everest is almost 30,000 feet above sea level realize that to flood the Earth to that depth would require a rainfall rate of
thirty feet per hour. (To verify divide 29,035 feet by 960 hours).
A year-long flood (as per Genesis) should have wiped out all vegetation, all animals, all fresh water fish and of course all humans. The remains (fossils) of these formerly living organisms should be found intermingled where they died or were deposited as sediments. Fossils of dinosaurs, primitive mollusks, fern trees and humans do NOT occur together anywhere in rock layers.
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:It makes no difference in my life whether or not I know the origins of life or the universe.
Agreed.
We can allow others to pontificate, speculate and contemplate "the beginning"
dgruber wrote:Zzyzx wrote:I encountered SC ideas in an environment that was accepting and inviting in the Unitarian Universalist Fellowships. Interesting groups of intelligent, tolerant non-regimented people.
www.uua.org
Thanks again. I will check it out.
My wife and I attended some fellowship meetings a few years ago and were very impressed with the intelligence and tolerance of people and the "Principles" of the organization are in keeping with our views:
We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6. The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
The "services" were nothing like any church we had attended and the lack of dogma was refreshing. We would attend meetings / services at least occasionally, for the intellectual stimulation and fellowship if nothing else, if there was a fellowship within reasonable driving distance of our present location.
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
