Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent

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Jayhawker Soule
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Post #11

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Sjoerd wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.
If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.
What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.

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Jayhawker Soule
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Re: Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent

Post #12

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Sjoerd wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote: Actually, it was about 40%. And there is no indication that any or all of them were Israelites.
Behar et al., 'The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event', The American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (3): 487–97. wrote: ..Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium..
Thank you for the quote.

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Post #13

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Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.
If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.
What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.
Sorry if I misread your comment. As I read it, it implies that you deny that the Palestinians are a people. I responded that I don't see any reason to deny to a self-identifying people the status of "people". I could be wrong in the sense that Palestinians might identify themselves as Jordanians, Egyptians or just plain Arabs instead of as Palestinians, but I don't think so.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.

William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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Jayhawker Soule
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Post #14

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Sjoerd wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, ...
Palestine was a place. Israel was a people.
If a group of persons identifies themselves as a people, I won't deny that they are a people.
What you will or will not do has no relevance to this thread or the accuracy of my comment.
Sorry if I misread your comment. As I read it, it implies that you deny that the Palestinians are a people.
As opposed to ...? "Palestinian" as currently employed is a post-Mandate propaganda construct. Before that time it referred to the people living in Israel and beyond -- all the people.

You claim: "halachically, many Palestinians are Jews". Based on what evidence? Based on what definition of 'Palestinian'?

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Post #15

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I agree with Jay that the Palestinian people, as we know them today, is a post-Mandate construction. It was really Arafat, as far as I can see, that molded them into a people. But just because they're a recent people doesn't mean they're not a people.

Meanwhile, I'd be surprised to find that some of them don't have Jewish ancestry--I just don't see what it signifies. They're overwhelmingly Muslim now (with a few exceptions.) None of them would be covered by Israel's law of return--any more than a Catholic in Spain who happens to be able to trace his female line back to a Jewish ancestress. Would said Catholic be halachically Jewish? Yeah, but unless he wants to abandon Catholicism and take up Judaism, he's still can't become Israeli under the law of return.


And, again, the law of return is only one way to become an Israeli citizen. A person of any religion can become a naturalized citizen.

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Jayhawker Soule
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Post #16

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Jrosemary wrote:I agree with Jay that the Palestinian people, as we know them today, is a post-Mandate construction. It was really Arafat, as far as I can see, that molded them into a people. But just because they're a recent people doesn't mean they're not a people.
They clearly have become "a people" and, as such, serve as a tragic, living monument to the cynical and despicable opportunism of much of the Muslim leadership in the Levant.

But what we're presented here has all the appearances of an agenda-driven maneuver. Note how we are treated to the following progression ...
  • Sjoerd wrote:- If so, what about Palestinians? What if they turn out to be mostly of Twelve Tribes Israelite descent? Would that make them Jewish? Could they invoke the Right of Return?
  • Sjoerd wrote:So, halachically, many Palestinians are Jews, but they don't have a permanent invitation to become Israeli.
that is, we've magically gone from "what if they turn out to be" to "many Palestinians are" without the slightest justification. This slight-of-hand is fully consonant with the author's decision to substitute "Right of Return" in place of "Law of Return."
Jrosemary wrote:And, again, the law of return is only one way to become an Israeli citizen. A person of any religion can become a naturalized citizen.
And the "law of return" does not apply to those who reject Judaism, and is certainly is not an option to those who deny Israel's right to exist.

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Post #17

Post by Sjoerd »

I have no hidden agenda whatsoever. If you really want to know my opinion on the matter, read this thread (post 76 and beyond).

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=70

And I didn't commit any sleight of hand. JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.

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Post #18

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Sjoerd wrote: JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
Feel free to point out where or offer informed reasons why.

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Re: Mitochondrial DNA to establish matrilinear descent

Post #19

Post by Sjoerd »

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Sjoerd wrote: JRosemary told me that many Palestinians are halachically Jews, and I believe her.
Feel free to point out where or offer informed reasons why.
Sure.

I asked:
Sjoerd wrote:Would that make them Jewish?
And she responded (in two posts because I understood wrong the first time):
Jrosemary wrote:I think it's been known--oh, forever--that many Palestinians have Jewish ancestry.
Jrosemary wrote: A halachic Jew is anyone who's mother is Jewish--if you come from a matrilineal Jewish line, then you're a Jew even if your family has been Roman Catholic for centuries.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
The nakedness of woman is the work of God.
Listen to the fool''''s reproach! it is a kingly title!
As the caterpiller chooses the fairest leaves to lay her eggs on, so the priest lays his curse on the fairest joys.

William Blake - The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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Jayhawker Soule
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Post #20

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Thank you for the reference. I think I'll let Jrosemary tell us what she meant by "many," but, meanwhile, why don't you tell us what would constitute "many" to you.

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