Holocaust

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Holocaust

Post #1

Post by otseng »

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

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Post #2

Post by Jrosemary »

I'm going to answer this with brutal honesty--please don't take offense.

Speculating on the relationship between the birth of Israel and the Shoah (Holocaust) is not uncommon, at least in synagogues--and I have known more than one Jew who has wondered if G-d is ruthless enough to have 'plotted' the Shoah to rebirth Israel. In my experience, that particular strain of thought sits better with Christians than with most Jews, because Christians (again, in my experience) seem much more forgiving toward G-d and much more willing to cut G-d some slack than Jews are.

Of course it's possible that G-d is not all powerful (whether He has purposely eclipsed some of His power for the sake of human free will or was never all powerful to begin with) and did not plot the Shoah. Perhaps, instead, He just used whatever power He has to help the nation Israel rise out of the ashes of the Shoah. I've heard both Christians and Jews accept this theory or a variation thereof.

On the other hand, many of the secular Jews of Israel (and America) would thumb their nose at that interpretation! G-d didn't do a damn thing, they would say. G-d turned His face away from us during the Shoah, and if we'd sit around waiting for G-d to do anything, there would be no Israel.

(I have considerable sympathy for that view. But the converse is a variation on the 'G-d is not all powerful theme;' perhaps the only way G-d can accomplish anything is through us.)

And, of course, many Jews don't hold with the whole notion of a personal G-d, viewing G-d instead as utterly transcendent, in which case the whole question doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile, if the Shoah was part of some divine plan--well, then G-d is every bit the ruthless bastard I've always thought Him. However much regard we have for Israel, I don't know a single Jew who, if given the choice between those six million lives and the nation of Israel, wouldn't say, "Give us back those six million lives." But G-d didn't give us that choice.
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Re: Holocaust

Post #3

Post by McCulloch »

As you could guess, my own answer to "Why would God allow the holocaust?" is that God had nothing to do with it. A god that is not there cannot allow or prevent any event.

But I do find it odd that a Christian, who promotes the ideas that Jesus had about God, you know, sparrows and lilies and "God so loved the world ...", would entertain the theory that this God would would engineer such an evil series of events in order to achieve essentially a political goal. With human advocates like this, who needs the likes of Richard Dawkins to insult your deity?
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Post #4

Post by otseng »

Jrosemary wrote:I'm going to answer this with brutal honesty--please don't take offense.
Honesty is good. No offense will be taken.
Speculating on the relationship between the birth of Israel and the Shoah (Holocaust) is not uncommon, at least in synagogues--and I have known more than one Jew who has wondered if G-d is ruthless enough to have 'plotted' the Shoah to rebirth Israel. In my experience, that particular strain of thought sits better with Christians than with most Jews, because Christians (again, in my experience) seem much more forgiving toward G-d and much more willing to cut G-d some slack than Jews are.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that God "plotted" or planned or caused the holocaust. But I would say that he allowed it.
On the other hand, many of the secular Jews of Israel (and America) would thumb their nose at that interpretation!
Wouldn't secularists thumb their nose at any involvement of God in any human matters?
G-d didn't do a damn thing, they would say. G-d turned His face away from us during the Shoah, and if we'd sit around waiting for G-d to do anything, there would be no Israel.
Well, it has been close to two thousand years correct? During that time, I don't think there was much progress for the formation of Israel.
And, of course, many Jews don't hold with the whole notion of a personal G-d, viewing G-d instead as utterly transcendent, in which case the whole question doesn't make sense.
Yes, it all depends on the presupposition one has. I'm coming from the belief that God is a personal God and has a purpose for things. Of course if one does not believe that God has any involvement in history, then any theory of God involved in human matters would not make any sense.
Meanwhile, if the Shoah was part of some divine plan--well, then G-d is every bit the ruthless bastard I've always thought Him.
I would not say that it was a "divine plan". If it was directly caused by God, yes, I would agree that it be a barbaric plan.

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Re: Holocaust

Post #5

Post by otseng »

McCulloch wrote:God would would engineer such an evil series of events in order to achieve essentially a political goal.
I'm not suggesting that God "engineered" it. Those who engineered it would be the Nazis. And I'm not suggesting that God used the Nazis to exterminate people.

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Post #6

Post by Jrosemary »

otseng wrote:
Jrosemary wrote:I'm going to answer this with brutal honesty--please don't take offense.
Honesty is good. No offense will be taken.
Thanks!
Osteng wrote:
JRosemary wrote:Speculating on the relationship between the birth of Israel and the Shoah (Holocaust) is not uncommon, at least in synagogues--and I have known more than one Jew who has wondered if G-d is ruthless enough to have 'plotted' the Shoah to rebirth Israel. In my experience, that particular strain of thought sits better with Christians than with most Jews, because Christians (again, in my experience) seem much more forgiving toward G-d and much more willing to cut G-d some slack than Jews are.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that God "plotted" or planned or caused the holocaust. But I would say that he allowed it.
I don't see that as any less problematic than saying it was part of a Divine plan. Saying G-d allowed the Shoah is saying that He turned His face away from His people when we needed Him most, and allowed unspeakable horrors and suffering for some other purpose. To me, that makes G-d utterly ruthless.

Well, maybe He is that ruthless. I'm not sure--but I've always suspected as much. Hence my uneasy relationship with HaShem.
Osteng wrote:
JRosemary wrote:On the other hand, many of the secular Jews of Israel (and America) would thumb their nose at that interpretation!
Wouldn't secularists thumb their nose at any involvement of God in any human matters?
Indeed, but that prevalence of that brand of secularism is, I think, at least partly a result of the Shoah. See below.
Osteng wrote:
JRosemary wrote: G-d didn't do a damn thing, they would say. G-d turned His face away from us during the Shoah, and if we'd sit around waiting for G-d to do anything, there would be no Israel.
Well, it has been close to two thousand years correct? During that time, I don't think there was much progress for the formation of Israel.
And the secularist would answer that we sat around waiting for the Messiach, like good little Jews. But G-d so utterly abandoned us during the Shoah--allowing the most unspeakable torture--that we've since seen the stupidity of that patience. To make the nation of Israel a reality, we had to roll up our sleeves and do the work ourselves.

(Heck, you don't even need to be a secular Jew to agree with this, or some softer variation. You'll notice that Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism have jettisoned the traditional notion of the Messiach. So have some Conservative Jews.)

My only argument, again, would be that you could say that G-d can only work through our hands. (That goes back to the question of how powerful G-d is.)

Besides, there were secular Jews who made great progress on rebirthing the nation Israel before the Shoah. In fact, you can make an argument that it was their work, and not the Shoah, that led to the rebirth.

Personally, I'd say at least that without the work of those secular, pre-Shoah Zionists, there wouldn't be an Israel today. I'm not sure whether they could have accomplished the rebirth without the, ah, 'help' of the Shoah though, whatever promises the British had made. I'll leave that as an open historical question.

But, again, however glad I am that the nation of Israel exists, I'd rather have those six million lives back.
Osteng wrote:
JRosemary wrote:And, of course, many Jews don't hold with the whole notion of a personal G-d, viewing G-d instead as utterly transcendent, in which case the whole question doesn't make sense.
Yes, it all depends on the presupposition one has. I'm coming from the belief that God is a personal God and has a purpose for things. Of course if one does not believe that God has any involvement in history, then any theory of God involved in human matters would not make any sense.
Indeed.
Osteng wrote:
JRosemary wrote:Meanwhile, if the Shoah was part of some divine plan--well, then G-d is every bit the ruthless bastard I've always thought Him.
I would not say that it was a "divine plan". If it was directly caused by God, yes, I would agree that it be a barbaric plan.
This goes back to the question of whether G-d is all powerful or not. If He is, then not only the Shoah but most of our tragic history as human beings is horrifically problematic--regardless of whether G-d planned or just allowed all the atrocities of human history.

If He isn't all powerful--and again, it may be that He has purposely eclipsed some of His power for the sake of human free will--then the question shifts slightly, though it still remains problmatic.

The most comfortable interpretation is that, one way or another, G-d does not have the power to prevent a tragedy like the Shoah, but He works to redeem such tragedies in some way (in this case, in the rebirth of Israel).

To me--well, there's a reason I quote Q in my signature. I think G-d gave us a world of wonder, but either He couldn't or wouldn't also give us a world of safety. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive. That's the only way I've been able to make a tentative peace with what I see as G-d's utter ruthlessness.
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Post #7

Post by otseng »

Jrosemary wrote: I don't see that as any less problematic than saying it was part of a Divine plan. Saying G-d allowed the Shoah is saying that He turned His face away from His people when we needed Him most, and allowed unspeakable horrors and suffering for some other purpose. To me, that makes G-d utterly ruthless.
This would lead to a whole other massive topic - the problem of evil and suffering. Yes, God would've allowed many people (including non-Jews) to go through incomprehensible suffering under the hands of the Nazis. And it's not limited to the holocaust either. God allowed for many horrendous things to happen also in the history of the world. But does it follow that God is ruthless? I do not see it that way. Anyways, it would take at least an entire book to address the problem of evil. But, I'll just say that the conclusion doesn't have to be that God is ruthless, uncaring, impotent, and uninvolved.
Well, maybe He is that ruthless. I'm not sure--but I've always suspected as much. Hence my uneasy relationship with HaShem.
Nazis were ruthless. God does not have to be.
To make the nation of Israel a reality, we had to roll up our sleeves and do the work ourselves.
Human involvement is certainly a necessary component. But, one tremendous barrier was international support for the formation of Israel. My thesis is simply that the holocaust was the key event that turned international opinion to support its formation.

Actually, we can even leave God out of the picture and look at it from a purely secular viewpoint. For thousands of years, the Jews had no homeland. And though they pursued having their own nation again, there was little international support for it. Though the holocaust can be considered to be the most tragic event in human history, one consequence of it was that it generated international sympathy for the formation of Israel.
My only argument, again, would be that you could say that G-d can only work through our hands. (That goes back to the question of how powerful G-d is.)
Concerning human interactions, I would say that God primarily works through our hands. And I think this is also what scripture supports.
Besides, there were secular Jews who made great progress on rebirthing the nation Israel before the Shoah. In fact, you can make an argument that it was their work, and not the Shoah, that led to the rebirth.
It was a necessary component, but I don't think sufficient. If a massive event did not happen to change public opinion and support, I don't think their efforts would become a reality.
Personally, I'd say at least that without the work of those secular, pre-Shoah Zionists, there wouldn't be an Israel today.
Certainly.
But, again, however glad I am that the nation of Israel exists, I'd rather have those six million lives back.
Would people have willingly given up their lives for the cause of reestablishing Israel? My guess would be yes. But though they unwillingly died, I think that their deaths were not in vain.
This goes back to the question of whether G-d is all powerful or not. If He is, then not only the Shoah but most of our tragic history as human beings is horrifically problematic--regardless of whether G-d planned or just allowed all the atrocities of human history.
Yes, back to the problem of evil.
The most comfortable interpretation is that, one way or another, G-d does not have the power to prevent a tragedy like the Shoah, but He works to redeem such tragedies in some way (in this case, in the rebirth of Israel).
I think he does have the power and can redeem evil.

Suppose he did have the power to prevent the holocaust and he actually did prevent it. How would we know about it? For example, suppose that Mr Evil had existed. And he had gone about to kill all the government leaders in the US. And being all-powerful, God reached down in history and stopped him from being born. And so we should thank God that he actually stopped Mr Evil from being born.

So, if it's argued that God is powerless because an evil occurred, it can likewise be argued that God is powerful because an evil did not occur.
He couldn't or wouldn't also give us a world of safety. Perhaps the two are mutually exclusive. That's the only way I've been able to make a tentative peace with what I see as G-d's utter ruthlessness.
Right, God did not give us a world of safety. But I don't think a "safe" world is desirable.

God could lock us in a padded room where we could not get hurt. Bugs won't bite us. People won't offend us. But a bubble existence is not living life. Life consists of both good and bad, pleasure and pain. So, I would argue that a life free from any possibility of pain and suffering is not a life worth living.

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Re: Holocaust

Post #8

Post by lastcallhall »

otseng wrote:I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.
God allows men the desires of their heart and gets blame for all the bad that happens in this world. We had paradise in the garden but we chose to have full knowledge of good and evil so God gave us what we wanted. People did not have the ability to sin until we were tricked by satan to eat the apple. I would say that satan puts evil things in the hearts of men and that is the reason we had the holocaust. God, in my opinion, took the evil committed by the Nazi's and made something wonderful in the state of Israel. I don't think you would have had the international support for the jewish state without the holocaust. This does not mean God is responsible for the holocaust but rather used this evil act to create good.
All the powers of darkness can't drown out a single word

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Re: Holocaust

Post #9

Post by christian1488 »

otseng wrote:I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.
My friend,You state ''the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years.''
????????????????

No offense but throughout history the Jews have been kicked out of various European countries for their beliefs and practices...it seems they have reasons for not having a homeland...

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm - Jews kicked out....

So, are you going to say God caused that to happen to the Jews each time?(keeping in mind it was not Just Hitler,it was History)

You also state ''their own land to call home''

Israel was not a state until the late 1940's and even then and now it is supported by the Christian USA,and if the USA stops it's support of the state of Israel,it would stop been a state.
Israel is not a ''nation'' but only a state.
When do the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus?
Does that connect with the definition of antichrist?
Are we to say the Jews land,in Israel is because God gave it to them by taking from Christians and giving to anti christians?

http://www.sherryshriner.com/talmud_tidbits.htm - talmud quotes i.e notice the antichristianity

Anti-Christian Israel TV shows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtVpHUjw ... re=related - Israeli talk show make fun of Jesus and Mary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZuarWBM ... re=related



Is it Christian to say God takes from Christians to give to a people who do not believe in Jesus?
If so,Why was Jesus sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Why would God choose a people who do NOT believe in Jesus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M539PgDj ... sults_main - Jew: We killed Jesus, we're proud of it


Your actual question should be,why did God allow history....

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Re: Holocaust

Post #10

Post by christian1488 »

lastcallhall wrote:
otseng wrote:I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.
God allows men the desires of their heart and gets blame for all the bad that happens in this world. We had paradise in the garden but we chose to have full knowledge of good and evil so God gave us what we wanted. People did not have the ability to sin until we were tricked by satan to eat the apple. I would say that satan puts evil things in the hearts of men and that is the reason we had the holocaust. God, in my opinion, took the evil committed by the Nazi's and made something wonderful in the state of Israel. I don't think you would have had the international support for the jewish state without the holocaust. This does not mean God is responsible for the holocaust but rather used this evil act to create good.
What do you mean ''wonderful in the state of Israel''?

http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/1/ ... ry_101.htm - Israeli History

http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm - Israeli Massacres


http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/index_1.html - Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... holy-land/ - Sex Slavery Thrives in “Holy Land�

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... in-israel/ - Trafficking In Israel

Now I'm a Christian and I'm curious as to how the state of Israel is a blessing to people?

Genesis 12:2-3:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why would God ''take'' from Christians?

The Christian USA obviously gave to the Jews that is how they are a state and continue to be an anti-christian state...

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