Holocaust

[otseng]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

[Darias]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

Otseng,

I personally would err on the side of caution on this particular issue.

It is understandable that Christians may want to see some justification for the Holocaust, as with any atrocity, after all:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Normally, as with any indescribably horrible and unexplainable event in human history, Christians do tend to ascribe it to part of God's plan -- for at least in that way it has some greater purpose. It is an effort to make sense of terrible things, and from my point of view completely understandable.

But I personally feel uncomfortable when the position is shifted from saying "it's part of God's permissive will (allowing man to act out of his own will), or it's part of God's greater plan" to the stance of: "it was God's will" or worse "it was God's will because [insert reason here]."

Concerning the Holocaust, Pastor John Hagee has advocated this view -- that it was God's will -- and that it was for the soul purpose that Israel would be established to fulfill end times prophesy, etc. Now I won't get into the things Hagee has said concerning Jews -- some of which is quite horrible. But what I do want to discuss is this whole issue of "justifying" the Holocaust.

While I personally see the Holocaust as a horrifying period of genocide brought about by human nature, nationalism, and cultural anti-Semitism, among many other factors which make notions of "influences of Supernatural Evil" quite redundant -- my issue has nothing to do with the fact that religious people, including Christians try to understand horrible things by attributing them to being part of God's plan. While I disagree strongly, and while I feel that no one can know or should attribute anything to God's intent, I don't have a problem with other people doing that. I mean if the Jews are "God's chosen people," as it is believed, then it's almost impossible to think believers won't rationalize what happened in a narrative that involves God's plan.

However...

When people take that extra step, to claim that "the Jews did not die in vain because now there's Israel -- all thanks to God." is very much politicizing the issue. It's very much ascribing racial and cultural favoritism to God. And I feel it's wrong.

Here's why.

The modern State of Israel, [never to be conflated or confused with the Kingdom of Israel] was founded by Jews (Zionists, Orthodox, and Secular) [never to be confused with Israelites] via war. But before their country was established, the Jewish people living in Palestine who had fleed Europe were living there primarily because other nations, like the United States, barred a certain number of Jewish immigrants from entering. Many Jews had no where else to go.

Many Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism, a secular ideology which sought to establish a Jewish Nationalist State; they felt that the human act of establishing a Jewish nation was blasphemous because that was supposed to be God's job. A number of Orthodox later changed their minds after Israel was established in 1948 however.

The Jews who had fled Nazi Germany were now refugees in a densely populated country that hadn't been theirs in 2000 years. Many Arabs, Christians and Muslims (and Middle Eastern Jews), had long been living in that area before the European Jews ever arrived. They had also long desired to have a state of their own, ever since WWI -- to escape the authority of the Ottoman Empire.

There were Arab Towns and Villages all over Palestine. Only a small Quarter in Jerusalem lived a significant number of Jews, who very much looked like the rest of the population - ethnically and culturally.

And there was a lot of violence on both sides during the time before the State of Israel. Radical Zionists would kill Arab villagers and an angry native population would attack Zionist camps and settlements.

Surrounding Arab nations did declare war on Israel after the UN partitioned the land in 1947, giving a great deal of territory to the Jews (who's population was far lower than the ratio of land allotted to them), and far less for the Arab Christian and Muslim population. Yet Zionists won and established a state -- that was only after 750 natives were driven into diaspora -- many of which now reside in the occupied territories or in Lebanon as unwanted refugees. While 1948 is known as the day of Israeli Independence for Jews, and as a sign of the second coming for Western Christians -- it is known as the "Nakba" or disaster for Palestinians. During this period 400 villages were destroyed. The map was redrawn, major cities in Hebrew, other Arab villages not included. The land suddenly transformed from Palestine into Israel in only a matter of years.

After Arab States declared war on Israel in 1967, Israel gained a lot of territory, of which was reserved for a Palestinian State. They occupied those areas for many years and in time have given back Sinai to Egypt and have ceased occupying Gaza (though a flotilla and air restrictions remain in place).

The leader of the Palestinian Authority has appealed to the UN, just as Israel did in 48, for statehood based upon 67 borders. This is due to decades of failed peace talks with Israeli administrations that did not see compromise where Palestinians saw it. Palestinians feel that it is a compromise to give Israel all but 23% of all of Palestine (that's based on 67 borders).

But currently, the Israeli government financially supports the construction of illegal settlements by fundamentalist Jews in territory that does not belong to the State of Israel and never has. Not only this but walls are being constructed, not just for the purpose of security, but also to "claim" more and more land -- often dividing Palestinian farms in two.

The West Bank is currently occupied by Israeli Soldiers -- and as of today, the majority of Palestinian refugees living meager existences in camps in neighboring countries (many of which still have the keys to their houses in Israel) are forbidden to return to Israel because the government fears that a large influx of non-Jewish people (cultural or religous) would undermine the "Jewishness" of Israel. I personally don't understand how that attitude is compatible with modern democracies but okay...

And this is why there has been conflict and political terrorism in the region. This has no doubt created a lot of hatred between both groups, and has caused people to label Jews or Arabs as "evil." It doesn't mean that all Palestinians have participated in violent action, or that All Israeli soldiers have killed indiscriminately, though there are many cases in which this happens. It's sad that whenever Israel retaliates against terrorists, they manage to cause a lot of collateral damage. It's also shameful that the Palestinians living in such horrible conditions feel forced to resort to bombs and violence when they have no political rights.

But this is the reality.... and this is why I think it's a mistake to say it's God's will for one wronged people to wrong another. Or to evoke the Holocaust at all. The Holocaust was its own tragic event -- it really doesn't justify what happened after it.

I also feel it is a mistake to say this conflict has always occurred and always will -- or that Arabs are the enemy of Jews, etc. This thinking, along with unquestioning support of right wing Israeli political administrations and actions, has no doubt prolonged the conflict. If this wasn't such a huge issue today, our government wouldn't have vetoed Palestinians appeal to the UN for statehood.

And while all Israeli administrations have claimed they want peace and a two state solution, their idea of a two state solution is very different from what many Palestinians want.

The Israeli government, the current one, simply wants peace -- they don't really want another state... they want to continue building settlements and claiming land that belongs to Palestinians.

The Palestinians want a two state solution, but they don't want a demilitarized occupied state that is forced to accept Israel's violation of its territorial sovereignty. They want a stop to all these settlements; they want the wall to be gone, and they want East Jerusalem to be their capital, which has been predominately Christian and Muslim for over a thousand years.

The Israeli government wants Jerusalem to be its eternal capital. (after 1967, the Morrocan Quarter of the city was demolished to make way for a huge open plaza in front of the wailing wall. The Jewish Quarter of the City had been the smallest, second to the Christian and Muslim Quarters. By Quarter, I mean homes. Now only Jews are allowed to live in the Jewish Quarter - but the idea that Eastern Jerusalem has always belonged to Israel is nonsense.

And here we are today, still waiting for a resolution to the conflict. Both sides need to compromise, but it's kind of unfair to think that both sides will equally compromise when it's the U.S. backed State of Israel vs. Palestinians with no state.

But we shall see. I hope peace happens; I hope a two state solution is established. Only time will tell.

Sources:

[Jrosemary]

Edit:

Ok, I just deleted what I posted. Like I said, I was too tired and cranky to determine what I should or shouldn't say.

So I'll just put this: if this thread goes too far in the direction of how Christians do or should view the Shoah, or the state of Israel, or G-d's actions or lack of actions, it should move to one of the numerous subforums about Christianity.

[Jrosemary]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

My friend,You state ''the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years.''
????????????????

No offense but throughout history the Jews have been kicked out of various European countries for their beliefs and practices...it seems they have reasons for not having a homeland...

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm - Jews kicked out....

So, are you going to say God caused that to happen to the Jews each time?(keeping in mind it was not Just Hitler,it was History)

You also state ''their own land to call home''

Israel was not a state until the late 1940's and even then and now it is supported by the Christian USA,and if the USA stops it's support of the state of Israel,it would stop been a state.
Israel is not a ''nation'' but only a state.
When do the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus?
Does that connect with the definition of antichrist?
Are we to say the Jews land,in Israel is because God gave it to them by taking from Christians and giving to anti christians?

http://www.sherryshriner.com/talmud_tidbits.htm - talmud quotes i.e notice the antichristianity

Anti-Christian Israel TV shows...

- Israeli talk show make fun of Jesus and Mary





Is it Christian to say God takes from Christians to give to a people who do not believe in Jesus?
If so,Why was Jesus sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Why would God choose a people who do NOT believe in Jesus?

- Jew: We killed Jesus, we're proud of it


Your actual question should be,why did God allow history....

Also from Christian1488:

What do you mean ''wonderful in the state of Israel''?

http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/1/ ... ry_101.htm - Israeli History

http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm - Israeli Massacres


http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/index_1.html - Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... holy-land/ - Sex Slavery Thrives in “Holy Land�

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... in-israel/ - Trafficking In Israel

Now I'm a Christian and I'm curious as to how the state of Israel is a blessing to people?

Genesis 12:2-3:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why would God ''take'' from Christians?

The Christian USA obviously gave to the Jews that is how they are a state and continue to be an anti-christian state...

Moderator Comment

These posts do not belong on the Judaism subforum--and I question whether they belong on any part of these forums. This subforum is dedicated to Judaism, not to Christian views and certainly not to antisemitism. Please respect the rules of each subforum.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[christian1488]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

Otseng,

I personally would err on the side of caution on this particular issue.

It is understandable that Christians may want to see some justification for the Holocaust, as with any atrocity, after all:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Normally, as with any indescribably horrible and unexplainable event in human history, Christians do tend to ascribe it to part of God's plan -- for at least in that way it has some greater purpose. It is an effort to make sense of terrible things, and from my point of view completely understandable.

But I personally feel uncomfortable when the position is shifted from saying "it's part of God's permissive will (allowing man to act out of his own will), or it's part of God's greater plan" to the stance of: "it was God's will" or worse "it was God's will because [insert reason here]."

Concerning the Holocaust, Pastor John Hagee has advocated this view -- that it was God's will -- and that it was for the soul purpose that Israel would be established to fulfill end times prophesy, etc. Now I won't get into the things Hagee has said concerning Jews -- some of which is quite horrible. But what I do want to discuss is this whole issue of "justifying" the Holocaust.

While I personally see the Holocaust as a horrifying period of genocide brought about by human nature, nationalism, and cultural anti-Semitism, among many other factors which make notions of "influences of Supernatural Evil" quite redundant -- my issue has nothing to do with the fact that religious people, including Christians try to understand horrible things by attributing them to being part of God's plan. While I disagree strongly, and while I feel that no one can know or should attribute anything to God's intent, I don't have a problem with other people doing that. I mean if the Jews are "God's chosen people," as it is believed, then it's almost impossible to think believers won't rationalize what happened in a narrative that involves God's plan.

However...

When people take that extra step, to claim that "the Jews did not die in vain because now there's Israel -- all thanks to God." is very much politicizing the issue. It's very much ascribing racial and cultural favoritism to God. And I feel it's wrong.

Here's why.

The modern State of Israel, [never to be conflated or confused with the Kingdom of Israel] was founded by Jews (Zionists, Orthodox, and Secular) [never to be confused with Israelites] via war. But before their country was established, the Jewish people living in Palestine who had fleed Europe were living there primarily because other nations, like the United States, barred a certain number of Jewish immigrants from entering. Many Jews had no where else to go.

Many Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism, a secular ideology which sought to establish a Jewish Nationalist State; they felt that the human act of establishing a Jewish nation was blasphemous because that was supposed to be God's job. A number of Orthodox later changed their minds after Israel was established in 1948 however.

The Jews who had fled Nazi Germany were now refugees in a densely populated country that hadn't been theirs in 2000 years. Many Arabs, Christians and Muslims (and Middle Eastern Jews), had long been living in that area before the European Jews ever arrived. They had also long desired to have a state of their own, ever since WWI -- to escape the authority of the Ottoman Empire.

There were Arab Towns and Villages all over Palestine. Only a small Quarter in Jerusalem lived a significant number of Jews, who very much looked like the rest of the population - ethnically and culturally.

And there was a lot of violence on both sides during the time before the State of Israel. Radical Zionists would kill Arab villagers and an angry native population would attack Zionist camps and settlements.

Surrounding Arab nations did declare war on Israel after the UN partitioned the land in 1947, giving a great deal of territory to the Jews (who's population was far lower than the ratio of land allotted to them), and far less for the Arab Christian and Muslim population. Yet Zionists won and established a state -- that was only after 750 natives were driven into diaspora -- many of which now reside in the occupied territories or in Lebanon as unwanted refugees. While 1948 is known as the day of Israeli Independence for Jews, and as a sign of the second coming for Western Christians -- it is known as the "Nakba" or disaster for Palestinians. During this period 400 villages were destroyed. The map was redrawn, major cities in Hebrew, other Arab villages not included. The land suddenly transformed from Palestine into Israel in only a matter of years.

After Arab States declared war on Israel in 1967, Israel gained a lot of territory, of which was reserved for a Palestinian State. They occupied those areas for many years and in time have given back Sinai to Egypt and have ceased occupying Gaza (though a flotilla and air restrictions remain in place).

The leader of the Palestinian Authority has appealed to the UN, just as Israel did in 48, for statehood based upon 67 borders. This is due to decades of failed peace talks with Israeli administrations that did not see compromise where Palestinians saw it. Palestinians feel that it is a compromise to give Israel all but 23% of all of Palestine (that's based on 67 borders).

But currently, the Israeli government financially supports the construction of illegal settlements by fundamentalist Jews in territory that does not belong to the State of Israel and never has. Not only this but walls are being constructed, not just for the purpose of security, but also to "claim" more and more land -- often dividing Palestinian farms in two.

The West Bank is currently occupied by Israeli Soldiers -- and as of today, the majority of Palestinian refugees living meager existences in camps in neighboring countries (many of which still have the keys to their houses in Israel) are forbidden to return to Israel because the government fears that a large influx of non-Jewish people (cultural or religous) would undermine the "Jewishness" of Israel. I personally don't understand how that attitude is compatible with modern democracies but okay...

And this is why there has been conflict and political terrorism in the region. This has no doubt created a lot of hatred between both groups, and has caused people to label Jews or Arabs as "evil." It doesn't mean that all Palestinians have participated in violent action, or that All Israeli soldiers have killed indiscriminately, though there are many cases in which this happens. It's sad that whenever Israel retaliates against terrorists, they manage to cause a lot of collateral damage. It's also shameful that the Palestinians living in such horrible conditions feel forced to resort to bombs and violence when they have no political rights.

But this is the reality.... and this is why I think it's a mistake to say it's God's will for one wronged people to wrong another. Or to evoke the Holocaust at all. The Holocaust was its own tragic event -- it really doesn't justify what happened after it.

I also feel it is a mistake to say this conflict has always occurred and always will -- or that Arabs are the enemy of Jews, etc. This thinking, along with unquestioning support of right wing Israeli political administrations and actions, has no doubt prolonged the conflict. If this wasn't such a huge issue today, our government wouldn't have vetoed Palestinians appeal to the UN for statehood.

And while all Israeli administrations have claimed they want peace and a two state solution, their idea of a two state solution is very different from what many Palestinians want.

The Israeli government, the current one, simply wants peace -- they don't really want another state... they want to continue building settlements and claiming land that belongs to Palestinians.

The Palestinians want a two state solution, but they don't want a demilitarized occupied state that is forced to accept Israel's violation of its territorial sovereignty. They want a stop to all these settlements; they want the wall to be gone, and they want East Jerusalem to be their capital, which has been predominately Christian and Muslim for over a thousand years.

The Israeli government wants Jerusalem to be its eternal capital. (after 1967, the Morrocan Quarter of the city was demolished to make way for a huge open plaza in front of the wailing wall. The Jewish Quarter of the City had been the smallest, second to the Christian and Muslim Quarters. By Quarter, I mean homes. Now only Jews are allowed to live in the Jewish Quarter - but the idea that Eastern Jerusalem has always belonged to Israel is nonsense.

And here we are today, still waiting for a resolution to the conflict. Both sides need to compromise, but it's kind of unfair to think that both sides will equally compromise when it's the U.S. backed State of Israel vs. Palestinians with no state.

But we shall see. I hope peace happens; I hope a two state solution is established. Only time will tell.

Sources:

No Christian can be anti-semite...for a Jew to call a Christian anti-semite falls false...consider this quote


"These Ashkenazim Jews have little or no trace of Semitic blood."-p. 222, "What Price Israel."


"Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." 1980 Jewish Almanac, P.3

So what is with Jews and Israel?

Jews go to synagogues right?

Revelation 2:9:I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

If Jews go to synagogues,why is it called ''the synagogue of Satan.''?



Consider how much money the small state of Israel makes each year by the Christian USA

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200
Interest from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel
Grand Total (from above) $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200

Outrageous isn't it ?



And all of this while there are currently 36 million Americans who do not know where their next meal is coming from. And furthermore, 12-14 million of those who are hungry in America, are children. The Bible says that Gods Chosen are supposed to be a blessing to all mankind, not a curse

What are the ''works'' of the state of Israel? It is certainly not Christianity!

http://solargeneral.com/?s=sex+slavery+thrives+ - Sex Slavery Thrives in “Holy Land�

http://www.solargeneral.com/mirrors/nat ... ml?id=1374 - Article Confirms Israel's White Slave Trade


1. 3,000 White European women per year are smuggled into Israel as sex slaves.

2. They are promised legitimate jobs, but put to work as prostitutes.

3. They are locked in apartments with barred windows.

4. They are relieved of their passports.

5. They are beaten, tortured, and gang-raped (Jewish method of "breaking them in").

6. They are sold at pimping auctions! - during which they are forced to undress.

7. They are forced to service up to 15 Jews a day, 7 days a week, in Israel's 400+ brothels.

8. There are 250 brothels in Tel Aviv alone!

9. Pimps and traffickers are ignored by police - prostitution is not a crime.

One of the marks of Israel was...

Israel to be kind to the poor and set slaves free. Deut. 15:7, 11; Psa. 72:4; Isa. 42:7; 49:9; 58:6.

Not force women into prostitution in Israeli brothels!




http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html - Come and hear(the Babylonian Talmud)

Insults Against Mary, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gloats over Christ Dying Young, A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

Says Jesus was a Sorcerer, Sanhedrin 43a . Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus, Gittin 57a . Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a . Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"

Shabbath 116a (p. 569). Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament. See footnote #6.

One of the marks of Israel was that they were to adopt Christianity...

Israel to be called the sons of God (i.e., accept Christianity). Hos. 1:10-11.


Judaism or Pharisaism? In "The Pharisees_The Sociological Background of Their Faith," Rabbi Louis Finkelstein describes these self-styled "Jews" and their origins:

"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes in name the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies."


So,what of Israel? Chosen of God or simply anti-christ?
What are Israel's works?
If the Jews were Israel they would not need the USA's support as one of the marks of Israel was ....

Israel to be great and mighty nation. Gen. 12:2; 18:18; Deut. 4:7,8.

How is a ''state'' a Nation?

Is support of Israel Christian? Is it of God?Or man?

[christian1488]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

My friend,You state ''the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years.''
????????????????

No offense but throughout history the Jews have been kicked out of various European countries for their beliefs and practices...it seems they have reasons for not having a homeland...

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm - Jews kicked out....

So, are you going to say God caused that to happen to the Jews each time?(keeping in mind it was not Just Hitler,it was History)

You also state ''their own land to call home''

Israel was not a state until the late 1940's and even then and now it is supported by the Christian USA,and if the USA stops it's support of the state of Israel,it would stop been a state.
Israel is not a ''nation'' but only a state.
When do the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus?
Does that connect with the definition of antichrist?
Are we to say the Jews land,in Israel is because God gave it to them by taking from Christians and giving to anti christians?

http://www.sherryshriner.com/talmud_tidbits.htm - talmud quotes i.e notice the antichristianity

Anti-Christian Israel TV shows...

- Israeli talk show make fun of Jesus and Mary





Is it Christian to say God takes from Christians to give to a people who do not believe in Jesus?
If so,Why was Jesus sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Why would God choose a people who do NOT believe in Jesus?

- Jew: We killed Jesus, we're proud of it


Your actual question should be,why did God allow history....

Also from Christian1488:

What do you mean ''wonderful in the state of Israel''?

http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/1/ ... ry_101.htm - Israeli History

http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm - Israeli Massacres


http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/index_1.html - Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... holy-land/ - Sex Slavery Thrives in “Holy Land�

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... in-israel/ - Trafficking In Israel

Now I'm a Christian and I'm curious as to how the state of Israel is a blessing to people?

Genesis 12:2-3:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why would God ''take'' from Christians?

The Christian USA obviously gave to the Jews that is how they are a state and continue to be an anti-christian state...

Moderator Comment

These posts do not belong on the Judaism subforum--and I question whether they belong on any part of these forums. This subforum is dedicated to Judaism, not to Christian views and certainly not to antisemitism. Please respect the rules of each subforum.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

These posts do not belong on the Judaism subforum--and I question whether they belong on any part of these forums. This subforum is dedicated to Judaism, not to Christian views and certainly not to antisemitism. Please respect the rules of each subforum.

How am I breaking rules?

These are facts ,and not anti-semitism...

Can you point out which ones are anti-semite?

Read my posts again and see which ones are anti-semite....

You can post the Jews are chosen BUT you will not post anything about the Jews or the state of Israel for fear of the antichrists!

Let me ask this

1)Does it not bother you that the talmud is anti-christian?
2) Does it not bother you that the Jews have been kicked out of many places throughout history?
3) Does it not bother you that in Israel there is sex slavery?
4)Does it not bother you that the Jews do not fulfill anything in the Bible?
5)Have you noticed that the word Jew is not in the torah?
6)Does it bother you that Jesus was sent to Israel,yet the Jews do not believe in Jesus?
7)Does it bother you that Israel as a state is only alive because of the USA?
8)Does it bother you that Israel was to be a blessing yet modern,state of Israel is more of a curse?

If these things do not bother you,then how can you be Christian or how can anyone call themselves Christian?

Is there a section we can debate about this?

[Jrosemary]

I have a theory I'd like to present and discuss. I'm not sure if anybody else has presented this idea before, but I've not come across it elsewhere.

The question I was wondering is, "Why did God allow the holocaust?" If one believes that God has a purpose for everything, then was there a purpose to it?

And I think there was. Prior to WWII, the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years. What would be the one of the most significant things that all Jews would've desired to have? I think it would've been to go back to the land of their fathers and call it home. But, there was not much international support for this. But, I think the critical turning point was the holocaust. That had generated international sympathy for the Jews and turned the world to support the idea of a nation of Israel. So, each Jew who died in the holocaust did not die in vain. Each played a part in eventually giving what the Jews had desired for a long time, their own land to call home.

My friend,You state ''the Jews had been scattered across the world with no homeland for almost 2000 years.''
????????????????

No offense but throughout history the Jews have been kicked out of various European countries for their beliefs and practices...it seems they have reasons for not having a homeland...

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm - Jews kicked out....

So, are you going to say God caused that to happen to the Jews each time?(keeping in mind it was not Just Hitler,it was History)

You also state ''their own land to call home''

Israel was not a state until the late 1940's and even then and now it is supported by the Christian USA,and if the USA stops it's support of the state of Israel,it would stop been a state.
Israel is not a ''nation'' but only a state.
When do the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus?
Does that connect with the definition of antichrist?
Are we to say the Jews land,in Israel is because God gave it to them by taking from Christians and giving to anti christians?

http://www.sherryshriner.com/talmud_tidbits.htm - talmud quotes i.e notice the antichristianity

Anti-Christian Israel TV shows...

- Israeli talk show make fun of Jesus and Mary





Is it Christian to say God takes from Christians to give to a people who do not believe in Jesus?
If so,Why was Jesus sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Why would God choose a people who do NOT believe in Jesus?

- Jew: We killed Jesus, we're proud of it


Your actual question should be,why did God allow history....

Also from Christian1488:

What do you mean ''wonderful in the state of Israel''?

http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/1/ ... ry_101.htm - Israeli History

http://www.seek-info.com/massacres.htm - Israeli Massacres


http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/index_1.html - Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... holy-land/ - Sex Slavery Thrives in “Holy Land�

http://solargeneral.com/jeffs-archive/s ... in-israel/ - Trafficking In Israel

Now I'm a Christian and I'm curious as to how the state of Israel is a blessing to people?

Genesis 12:2-3:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why would God ''take'' from Christians?

The Christian USA obviously gave to the Jews that is how they are a state and continue to be an anti-christian state...

Moderator Comment

These posts do not belong on the Judaism subforum--and I question whether they belong on any part of these forums. This subforum is dedicated to Judaism, not to Christian views and certainly not to antisemitism. Please respect the rules of each subforum.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

These posts do not belong on the Judaism subforum--and I question whether they belong on any part of these forums. This subforum is dedicated to Judaism, not to Christian views and certainly not to antisemitism. Please respect the rules of each subforum.

How am I breaking rules?

These are facts ,and not anti-semitism...

Can you point out which ones are anti-semite?

Read my posts again and see which ones are anti-semite....

You can post the Jews are chosen BUT you will not post anything about the Jews or the state of Israel for fear of the antichrists!

Moderator Comment

Our rules do not allow public challenges to moderators, so that no thread is derailed. Moreover, your posts are not in harmony with the purpose of this subforum, which is clearly posted:

The purpose of this subforum is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.

I am revoking your privilege of posting in this subforum, effective immediately. Any further posts from you in the Judaism subforum will be deleted.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[Darias]

I'd just like to say that I didn't mean to encourage christian1488; my views on this issue are distinct from his and that should be noted. Also, for the record I do feel that Israel, as a State has a right to exist based on many factors.

However, it's just that I don't feel comfortable politicizing the Holocaust, or trying to understand it in terms of a divine purpose. I'd like to know if other people feel this way as well, specifically those who practice Judaism.