The Maschiah

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ByFaithAlone
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The Maschiah

Post #1

Post by ByFaithAlone »

I have been listening to a series of lectures on youtube by Rabbi Michael Skobac (see link below). He is exploring the schism between Christianity and Judaism that occured soon after the death of Jesus.

He raises a few interesting points about the maschiah and I have a few questions about his interpretations (please watch at least a few of the videos before you comment).

1. Is it possible for Jews to believe the maschiah has already come and will return at a later time? For example, if G-d raised Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba, who was thought to be the maschiah by many in his day, to life, could he return and truly be the maschiah? Or is this simply an un-Jewish belief?

2. He says that Judaism and Christianity did not have to seperate except for the issue of Christ's divinity, assuming of course, Yeshua was indeed the annointed one. Would you agree?

3. He mentions several rabbis and historical figures throughout the series of lectures. For personal use, could I have a list of people who were thought to be the maschiah and rabbis who have influenced Jewish thought regarding the Maschiah? Personal bias is fine if you believe one is better than another.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/user/Jews4Judais ... V4ldosXaSA
Go to the Jews4Judaism Channel to see the rest

P.S. I hope this doesn't violate this subforums rules (under the Christianity supplanting Judaism section) but if it does, I apologize and would ask a moderator to kindly move it to Questions About a Belief.

Also, I tried to ensure this post would be as accurate as possible in terms of Jewish beliefs. Please correct me on names, words, customs, etc. I may have gotten wrong. Thank you!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
Hebrews 11:1-2

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
1 Peter 3:15

Test everything. Hold on to the good.
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Goat
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Re: The Maschiah

Post #2

Post by Goat »

ByFaithAlone wrote:I have been listening to a series of lectures on youtube by Rabbi Michael Skobac (see link below). He is exploring the schism between Christianity and Judaism that occured soon after the death of Jesus.

He raises a few interesting points about the maschiah and I have a few questions about his interpretations (please watch at least a few of the videos before you comment).

1. Is it possible for Jews to believe the maschiah has already come and will return at a later time? For example, if G-d raised Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba, who was thought to be the maschiah by many in his day, to life, could he return and truly be the maschiah? Or is this simply an un-Jewish belief?
It is a not a Jewish belief. .. the Moishe will only come once, and will be recognized by him doing all the deeds predicted. Some forms of Judaism do not see the Messiah as a person, but rather the scripture describes a messianic age, where the ideals that were supposed to be brought by the messiah are worked on coming to fulfillment by everyone. Others don't believe in a messiah at all. The orthodox tend to be waiting for that 'star messiah'.. but even as early as 200 c.e. it was doubted by other rabbi's that he would come at all.

2. He says that Judaism and Christianity did not have to seperate except for the issue of Christ's divinity, assuming of course, Yeshua was indeed the annointed one. Would you agree?
[]/quote]

No, I do not. There are other concepts in Christianity that are foreign to Judaism, Such things are the Christian concept of Salvation and original sin. It could be that some of the now extinct forms of early Christianity could be close enough, but modern Christianity has gone down a largely different path.

I would say that the largest sticking point would be the divinity of Jesus, and way the New Testament takes the Jewish scripture out of context to try to sell Jesus. THen, there is the obsession with the afterlife in Christianity , as well as the Christian concepts of salvation and original sin. The last 3 probably could be worked through, but the use of the New Testament as scripture is a deal breaker in my opinion.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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ThatGirlAgain
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Re: The Maschiah

Post #3

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

ByFaithAlone wrote:2. He says that Judaism and Christianity did not have to seperate except for the issue of Christ's divinity, assuming of course, Yeshua was indeed the annointed one. Would you agree?
I would think a much bigger reason would be Paul expanding the definition of the Jesus movement, previously exclusively Jewish, to include gentiles and stating repeatedly that they did not have to follow Jewish law. Paul himself records that this was the source of considerable tension.

We do not see much in the way of Jesus being specifically identified as at least quasi-divine until the Gospel of Matthew. (There were a couple of passing references in Paul but they are easy to miss.) Yet Matthew is the most Jewish of the Gospels and insists on total faithfulness to the Law.

If anyone wishes to bring up the idea of Jesus as 'Son of God', it would be best to consider how that term would have been interpreted by Jews in the 1st century CE. Not as a literal member of the family.
In the Book of Exodus Israel as a people is called "God's son", using the singular form. Both the terms sons of God and "son of God" appear in Jewish literature predating the New Testament. In Jewish literature, the leaders of the people, kings and princes were called "sons of God" based on the view of the king as the lieutenant of God. However, the Messiah, the Anointed One, was uniquely called the Son of God, as in Psalm 2:7: The "Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee". This psalm can obviously be seen as referring to a particular king of Judah, but has also been understood of the awaited Messiah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God ... al_context
We see branches of the Jesus movement that accepted Jesus as the Messiah but remained entirely Jewish in their practices. But they were distinctly not Pauline in nature. Proto-orthodox Christianity was heavily Pauline.
Ebionites...is a patristic term referring to a Jewish Christian sect or sects that existed during the first centuries of the Christian Era. They regarded Jesus as the Messiah and insisted on the necessity of following Jewish religious law and rites. The Ebionites used only one of the Jewish Gospels, revered James the Just and rejected Paul of Tarsus as an apostate from the Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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