Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

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cnorman18

Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #1

Post by cnorman18 »

This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate. This post is intended to EXPLAIN something that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, do not, apparently, understand.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's idol-worshippers -- those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.

That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.

To begin, then:

Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed.

The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think; most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place (the very term has a different meaning in the Jewish religion, which is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future�). The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation. (2) He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life; not in a symbolic or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history. This last is, as I say, the most important task of all; the Messiah would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The Messiah has not come.

Another issue is that Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were and are alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. It was even claimed that Jesus was God incarnate, that a human being was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches on Yom Kippur than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable. (The one -- count ‘em, ONE -- verse from Scripture that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries is more than a little ludicrous.)

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is more difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough -- it was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day -- the role of “Savior.� it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. “Salvation,� in the Christian sense of “going to Heaven,� is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it is reaffirmed in every generation.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

In that spirit, I'll also offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, “You’re here!� the Christians will look up and say, “You’re back!� -- and then we’ll all hug each other and laugh about it.

Peace to all.

Charles

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Post #71

Post by ndf8th »

cnorman18 when I read you description on Judaism
I wish there existed some naturalistic version that
where totally unrelated to the ethnic heritage and culture
so that anybody could join such a faith.

Not for to steal it or to make a fake copy but to see it
as a basically human way to relate to all there is.

Hope it is okay to ask have you heard of such attempts
to create such a religion? I agree with much of what you say there.

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Post #72

Post by fwbbeliever »

Yes, that verse has been used in that way for quite a long time; we Jews do not see it in quite the same way. From the Jewish Study Bible: "In the Tanakh, faith does not mean believing in spite of the evidence It means trusting profoundly in another person, in this case the person God who has reiterated his promise." Note, too, that the trust was proven by Abraham's subsequent actions, not merely his assertions; in fact, Abraham makes no assertions at all in this passage.
This is the correct definition of faith. The difference I would have, of course, is I trust Jesus Christ, that he was the true Messiah for the Jews, and that he is coming again to set up the kingdom to fulfill all of the promises that have been given to the Jews in the Old Testament.

One more verse I have is this.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

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Post #73

Post by Goat »

fwbbeliever wrote:
Yes, that verse has been used in that way for quite a long time; we Jews do not see it in quite the same way. From the Jewish Study Bible: "In the Tanakh, faith does not mean believing in spite of the evidence It means trusting profoundly in another person, in this case the person God who has reiterated his promise." Note, too, that the trust was proven by Abraham's subsequent actions, not merely his assertions; in fact, Abraham makes no assertions at all in this passage.
This is the correct definition of faith. The difference I would have, of course, is I trust Jesus Christ, that he was the true Messiah for the Jews, and that he is coming again to set up the kingdom to fulfill all of the promises that have been given to the Jews in the Old Testament.

One more verse I have is this.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Aren't mistranslations so nice?? If you read the Hebrew, the word is not 'Pierced' It's "Stabbed"
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #74

Post by Dario »

Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.


GREETINGS

cnorman18

Post #75

Post by cnorman18 »

Dario wrote: Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.

GREETINGS
And greetings to you; but your opinion will remain your opinion. Even on the most superficial level, Isaiah 53 could not refer to Jesus. V. 10 says that the servant will "see his offspring," and Jesus had no children. Remember, you yourself said that there is no need for a "symbolic" or "figurative" sense in this passage.

You will see a discussion of the chapter in the Wikipedia entry. As is often the case, this passage is used by Christians after being removed from its context. The Servant is explicitly said to be the people of Israel in Isaiah 41, for starters. There is much more.

Many Christians assume that the Messiah is a major theme of Judaism. It isn't. The Torah, the most authoritative and most sacred part of the Hebrew Bible, does not mention the concept (and it is to be remembered that the entire "Old Testament," as Christians call the Hebrew Bible, does not hold equal authority or importance in the Jewish Religion anyway; the Torah is the most important, the Prophets less so). Belief in and hope for the Messiah is no longer a particularly large part of the modern Jewish faith; the emphasis today is on the Messianic Age, a time of perfect peace, justice and faith toward which we ALL work ourselves, as opposed to merely waiting for a magical Messiah to rescue us. The Messiah was always taught to be an ordinary mortal man anyway, just as David, the prototype of the Messiah King, was an ordinary mortal man.

In any case, this is the wrong forum in which to pursue this debate. There is a similar thread, with the same title, on the Christianity & Apologetics subforum; feel free to address the issue there. he purpose of THIS subforum "is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to."

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Post #76

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Dario wrote: Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that
Name three.

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Post #77

Post by Dario »

cnorman18 wrote:
Dario wrote: Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.

GREETINGS
And greetings to you; but your opinion will remain your opinion. Even on the most superficial level, Isaiah 53 could not refer to Jesus. V. 10 says that the servant will "see his offspring," and Jesus had no children. Remember, you yourself said that there is no need for a "symbolic" or "figurative" sense in this passage.

You will see a discussion of the chapter in the Wikipedia entry. As is often the case, this passage is used by Christians after being removed from its context. The Servant is explicitly said to be the people of Israel in Isaiah 41, for starters. There is much more.

Many Christians assume that the Messiah is a major theme of Judaism. It isn't. The Torah, the most authoritative and most sacred part of the Hebrew Bible, does not mention the concept (and it is to be remembered that the entire "Old Testament," as Christians call the Hebrew Bible, does not hold equal authority or importance in the Jewish Religion anyway; the Torah is the most important, the Prophets less so). Belief in and hope for the Messiah is no longer a particularly large part of the modern Jewish faith; the emphasis today is on the Messianic Age, a time of perfect peace, justice and faith toward which we ALL work ourselves, as opposed to merely waiting for a magical Messiah to rescue us. The Messiah was always taught to be an ordinary mortal man anyway, just as David, the prototype of the Messiah King, was an ordinary mortal man.

In any case, this is the wrong forum in which to pursue this debate. There is a similar thread, with the same title, on the Christianity & Apologetics subforum; feel free to address the issue there. he purpose of THIS subforum "is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to."

Hello again

Well, you said that in the v.10 has to be absolutely literally, but I meant in general,I mean, the text clearly speaks about one individual ,from Isaiah 52:13 until Isaiah 53:12, but you neither interpret this literally, you apply singular pronouns to a nation.

‘seed’ is sometimes used metaphorically in the Scriptures, and since it can sometimes refer simply to a future generation.

But after his resurrection we can claim that Jesus fulfilled the description "seeing seed"

Certainly,if you ever accept the NT, you have to accept Jesus as out Father in the
same way that YHWH ,God the Father

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Not only Israel or Jacob is the servant of YHWH but also the Messiah, through the Scriptures and its books we can find some characters like Nebuchadnezzar , and Cyrus as God's anointed (Isaiah 45:1) simply because they were the instruments of God's purpose.

In the same way there are 2 servants in Isaiah who have differences between themselves.

Israel, as a servant NEEDS redemption, the servant of Isaiah 53, REDEEMS, bearing sin and MAKING others righteous.

Hes is a REDEEMER.


__Israel__

Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant: I have formed you; you are my servant: O Israel, you shall not be forgotten of me.
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS, and, as a cloud,YOUR SINS: return unto me; for I HAVE REDEEMED YOU .


__The Messiah__


Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE ,NEITHER WAS ANY DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days, and the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY ; FOR HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; AND HE BORE THE SIN OF MANY , and made intercession for the transgressors.

If Israel was an obedient nation, they would not suffer punishment or suffering, they would receive blessings. They would be placed above the nations of the eart



Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.

GREETINGS

cnorman18

Post #78

Post by cnorman18 »

Dario wrote:
Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.
This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

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Post #79

Post by Dario »

cnorman18 wrote:
Dario wrote:
Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.
This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

I am sorry if got angry,
Whether this is not a place to debate,( although this website is called "" DEBATING CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION) what website to debate about Judaism would you recommend me?

GREETINGS

cnorman18

Post #80

Post by cnorman18 »

Dario wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
Dario wrote:
Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.
This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

I am sorry if got angry,
Whether this is not a place to debate,( although this website is called "" DEBATING CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION) what website to debate about Judaism would you recommend me?
I am not "angry"; just a trifle annoyed that you don't appear to be listening. The truths of Judaism are not up for debate in this subforum. You can debate such ideas on other subforums here, on "Christianity and Apologetics," for instance, the primary subforum of this site; but not in this one. I thought I made that clear.

There are few Jews on this forum for you to debate with, and (though I can't speak for all) most of us seem to take this position: "Whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah is a matter that can, and should, only be decided by Jews. That judgment was made 2,000 years ago, and has been reaffirmed by every generation since. He wasn't. End of debate."

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